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Welcome everyone to IWIRC's annual spring meeting for 2011. My name is Judy Elkin. I am the current chair of IWIRC International. You can't hear me. It's hard to believe there's a microphone that's too short for me. Let's try this. I'm Judy Elkin. I'm the current

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chair of IWIRC International, and I am also a bankruptcy partner at Haynes and Boone in New York. Welcome out on this lovely chilly rainy Washington DC morning. As many of you know, usually in the spring, we just have a luncheon. This year, we decided

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to do something different. We thought that it might be interesting to hear from. This gentleman told me he turned it on. I gotta be closer. All right. Let's try this. Will not have a singing career out of this though. As I was saying,

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usually, we have a, our program is just a luncheon in the spring, but we decided we would do something this year. This is going to be a very special and memorable program. The women you're going to hear from have had amazing careers and

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also amazing and varied experiences. They're truly the pioneers of women in the insolvency field over the last 30 years. Their contributions and insight. I know, but I, I fit in that category too. It is hard to believe some of us have been doing this for 30

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years. It's scary. Their contributions are going to be recorded for posterity here, and they will be housed at the National Bankruptcy Archives at the University of Pennsylvania Biddle Archive, I think it's the Biddle Law Library, which is supported by the American College of Bankruptcy.

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Before I introduce our moderator and our interviewees, I want to thank several people. First, I wanna thank Kirsten Carson for their wonderful dinner last night. Thank you so much. Francine is somewhere. Also, I want to thank Judge Diane Sigmund who unfortunately wasn't able to be

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here today. She is the chair of the American College of Bankruptcy Archives Committee, and she approached us with the wonderful idea for this program, telling us that there were very few women who had been interviewed and whose experiences had been preserved. Second, 3rd,

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I guess, Jen McLemore with Christian and Barton in Richmond, who is the head of programming for IWIRC. Jen is somewhere here and her committee, because without their diligence and their energy and enthusiasm, none of this could have happened. Also want to thank our wonderful sponsor Covington

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and Burling and for letting us use their space here. This is perfect space. The views are spectacular and they've been very generous and helpful to us. I'm gonna introduce Michael Saint Patrick Baxter, a partner with Covington, who's in their corporate restructuring and bankruptcy group,

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and he's gonna say a little bit of a few words. Michael is also the current chair of the ABA Business Bankruptcy Committee. I'm sure many of you know him, Michael. Thank you, thank you, Judy. Thank you very much. Welcome to Washington DC. I've

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long admired the work and mission of IWIRC. So when Judy called me and asked, if we would host this August event, I had to say no, not, not just because no one says no to Judy, but because the opportunity

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to, to host this event was really, an opportunity of uncommon proportion. On behalf of Covington and Burling, I'd like to welcome you to Washington. I bring special greetings from to Judge Rendell from her former colleague on the Third Circuit, and now our

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colleague, Secretary Michael Chertoff. We at Covington are delighted to welcome all of you here. Thank you very much. OK, before we begin, I'm just gonna take a few minutes and introduce our moderator and our panelists. More complete bio information is included in,

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in the program. Our moderator is the Honorable Marjorie Rendell of the United States Court of Appeals for the 3rd Circuit. Prior to being on the bench, Judge Rendell practiced bankruptcy law with Duane Morris in Philadelphia. She has served on the US District Court from 1994 to

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1997 and then was elevated to the Court of Appeals by President Clinton. In her spare time, Judge Rendell has also served as the First Lady of the state of Pennsylvania, where her focus was on civics education for children. Our panelists are Norma Corio, who is a

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senior officer with JPMorgan Chase. Marcia Goldstein, a partner with Weil, Gotshal and Manges. The Honorable Barbara Houser, Chief Judge of the United States Bankruptcy Court for the Northern District of Texas, the Honorable Mary Walrath judge with the US Bankruptcy Court for the District of Delaware,

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and Bettina Whyte, a managing director with turnaround firm Alvarez and Marsal in New York. Each of these women have worked in the insolvency fields for over x number of years. We won't discuss that any further. And each has made significant contributions to the insolvency fields in

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the legal banking and business sides. And now I'm gonna turn the bank, the program over to Judge Rendell, and we will take a short break at around 11 o'clock. Thank you. Good morning. Can everyone see? If not you move center. I think we're, we're on camera

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over here so that you can see, it's an honor to be with you all. I was a bankruptcy practitioner for many years and then I actually chaired the bankruptcy administration committee of the judicial conference when I was serving as a judge, so I've kept my

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hand in somewhat, the field that you're involved in. Lani Guinier law professor once said that a man goes into the shower and uses a new razor and cuts himself and says, What's wrong with his razor? A woman goes in, cuts herself, and says,

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what am I doing wrong? Maybe that's an overgeneralization as to maybe some innate insecurities that we may have, but imagine starting out in bankruptcy practice in the 70s with natural insecurities and being involved in a profession predominated almost exclusively by men.

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Men smoking cigars, making deals in back rooms, no less. We encountered that situation, we encountered changing law, which maybe helped us because then everybody was on a level playing field when the code came in in 1978. But of course we're not all in the legal

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profession as such, we're in the insolvency profession. So we're here today. I'm honored to be moderating this panel that needs no moderation, as you can imagine, or is impossible to moderate. Whatever. Yeah, I suggested Jen might use a striped shirt and a whistle. We all

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got together for dinner last night, so we've, we've already had our moderation, but. And we wanna have a free form discussion conversation. We'll be talking over each other, at each other, with each other, and I'll do my best to switch topics here and there,

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but again, it's open to whatever, my fellow panel members, wanna get into, and there will be a time for questions at the end. So, if we haven't hit on something that, intrigues you or something that inquiring minds wanna know, please, make

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note of it and, and we'll catch up with you later. I thought I'd start out by talking about how we got into this profession because obviously as I was growing up I chose initially I was gonna be a nun, then I was gonna be a French

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teacher, and then I woke up one morning and said, you know what? I think I wanna be a bankruptcy lawyer. No, it didn't happen like that. Much like the military, I was drafted into the field of bankruptcy when a certain bank, which later became

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a huge client, the EVP walked in the door, Duane Morris on April 7th, 1975 with two huge cases, one of which involved a million dollars in secured debt. And the other one, a shoe store involving $700,000 in secured debt and at that time if you

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went out and got the collateral you could keep it even though they filed so I went out and got shoes and I learned early on that shoes need to be in pairs in boxes in order to be worth anything so and you learn something new

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every day, but I thought to pair them up and put them in the. No, if they weren't paired and put in the boxes, you were, you know, because there were hundreds of thousands of them anyway, I thought we would talk about how we did get involved.

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Now I know Mary, you have an interesting story of your love of the idea of getting into bankruptcy. Well, as Mitch said, I fell into it quite frankly, when I was in law school. I was determined to be a labor lawyer and I got

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a job and was all ready to start and a week before my starting date, my mother read in the Inquirer that the law firm had collapsed. They hadn't even told me, so I was like, oh my, what am I gonna do? Here it is,

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you know, September, and all the jobs are taken. I ran to the message board, the job board at the law school, and there was one card up, and it was a clerkship for a bankruptcy judge. It was 1979, so it was literally the first year that

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judges could hire full-time law clerks. And Judge Goldhaber apparently felt that, you know, a month notice would be sufficient to find a law clerk. Now we take a year in advance to find a law clerk, but I just lucked out. There was one there.

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I ran in, got an interview. Judge Goldhaber interviewed me, told 2 or 3 jokes. I laughed, and then he said, now let me show you a back way out so you don't have to go through the clerk's office, and I thought, oh my God. This

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was a waste of time. He must have already hired somebody, you know, this was a 10 minute interview, so I was very surprised to get the call the next week that he wanted to hire me. I fell into it. I loved it

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from day one. He was a great teacher and we'll talk about mentors in our lives, but he was a great teacher, but. You know, I just fell into it. It was not something I selected. Yeah, Marcia, how about you? Well, I also fell into the

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profession and, you know, I think when you're talking about starting a job in the 70s, it wasn't like law students were clamoring to go into bankruptcy work to begin with. So, you know, I have to say I fell into it. I mean, and really fell into

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it because even going to law school, I was a junior in college. I was sort of thinking about jobs, you know, what am I going to do with my life. And there's nothing that really appealed to me. And, you know, frankly, a lot of the people

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around me, including my then boyfriend who happens to be my husband, well, I'm gonna go to law school. So I said, you know, if they could do that, well, so can I. So I went to see my advisor in college. They had announced a

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program we can go after your junior year, and I said, you think I could do that? And, you know, he made a phone call. He says, yeah, you could take the LSAT on Saturday. So, you know, I had no pressure about it because you know how

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today, all these kids are going crazy with studying and preparing and I just went and I got in and I, and I just continued. I still had my same friends as an undergraduate. I was still at Cornell University and just moved buildings. So, but

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then in terms of bankruptcy, some of you probably know this story. I've told it before, I was a 3rd year. I didn't really like my experience as a 2nd year summer associate. I was in a firm, I won't name it, lots of

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antitrust work. I sat in an office with an associate who spent his entire day from 8 in the morning until midnight every day dictating summaries of documents, and I said, Oh, I don't want to do that. So I said, I'm, you know, I'm gonna interview. And

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then my husband was a 2nd year. He was, a joint MBA JD, and he had an interview lined up at Weil Gotshal, but he, he said to me, you know. I, I can't make that. I have a fly back to, I

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don't remember what firm it was, Milbank or whatever it was. Paul, he, he, he went to Paul Weiss. He, I said, but you got punished if you didn't show for an interview. You, you were banned, and his name is Mark Goldstein. By the time I was

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a 3rd year law student, we were married, and I'm Marcia Goldstein at this point. So I said, What are you worried about? I'll go. So. There's, there's no well, there is no insecurity there, so I said, you know, I'll go talk, I'll try to,

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you know, substitute my resume for yours. It won't be a big deal. It's M. Goldstein. Nobody's gonna really get all crazy about this, and many of you also know that my mentor is Harvey Miller, but the person who was there interviewing at Cornell Law School was

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Michael Cook, and so he interviewed me. And then When I, the day I, I believe in fate a little bit, so the day I'm coming to, interview at Weil Gotshal, flying to New York from Ithaca to New York City from Ithaca was always a

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challenge, and the weather was never good. And so I'm on the plane and you know I have to make the morning interview and weather. So we make a stop in Utica and I'm saying to him, and we don't know when we're gonna, you know, take off

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again. I said, Well, this, this is gone. This is not happening. So I called the firm. I said, you know, weather, I'm gonna be late, and, so I showed up for my 9 a.m. interview at 1 o'clock. And everybody was so nice, you know. So,

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yeah, that would have been even funnier if Mark showed up. So, to make a long story short, I was greeted nicely, taken to lunch, given interviews, and I felt good about it. And I always advise students today who are far more

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well informed, and, and again, the bankruptcy thing came later because Michael, I, I was sure orchestrated. Because I said, I don't know, I went to corporate work or, you know, and I didn't know anything about bankruptcy work, and I had a friend from law

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school who actually was at Wild the year, you know, he'd started a year before and he ended up in that group, and he says, you know, this is pretty interesting. So I said, you know what, I'll give it a try. I don't really know what I

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want to do. And I walked in, that we were, I was the 13th lawyer in the group. They were working on the biggest bankruptcy case ever, Chapter 11, old 11. Ever filed it had about between 150 and 200 million of debt. It was a

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a REIT, and you know what, what comes around goes around. I'm still doing that stuff. So well, you gotta understand at that point the bankruptcy law was Collier's and it took up this much, this much on a shelf in the law library, so we were making

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it up as we went along and that probably was good because as women I think we're very good at that. Yeah, I mean looking back, you know, has this been, is this a good profession? I'm not just talking about law but insolvency generally I think Norma

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you had some ideas about that. I think it very much is, and I was another one, you know, in a bit by accident, but I do think it's a terrific profession for me the thing that I find is, you know, when you first

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hear bankruptcy and you don't know anything about it. It isn't the number one thing you check off of your my top 5 things I wanna do and but I think as you get into what you realize and all of us no matter what perspective we

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have so mine would be typically the financing or advisory perspective and now the investing perspective. Or whether or not you're council or you're management or what you are, you're actually making things better one way or another, at least for those of us that

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sit here, we are making something better, so you're solving a problem. You do end up saving jobs. I remember when I first took this and job when I first took the restructuring job at JPMorgan. Which is, you know, it's a tremendous platform and huge market

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share. So one thing I will advise you, if you're not on the right platform and you really love it, you do need to find the right platform because no individual can do this, and it matters a lot when you look at the names of the firms

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that we've worked for, you know. It prominence within the field does matter because when you're in trouble you wanna make one call and you're not gonna take a flyer on a firm you don't know or a person you don't know, etc. so if you wanna

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stay in this field reputation matters a lot, yours and your firm's. And so I would say the fact that a CEO will thank you for what you have done and will tell you usually tell you a lot, I think there's a huge advantage to

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being female I will tell you in this profession and the reason is men who are mostly the CEOs I've, I've worked with one CEO woman who's fabulous, Kathleen Ligocki at Tower Automotive, but other than her, every single CEO has been a man. I think they find

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it much easier to tell their problems or their failures to a woman than to a man because they're used to telling their spouses or their mothers or their sisters or somebody. No, of course not, but it's an advantage it's an advantage to have them open up,

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yeah, but it's an advantage to have them open up because they're not willing, they're not, they don't, there's not the same stigma as telling a high powered guy. That you have failed or some way your company has failed, so for me it's been very rewarding. I

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have a follow up on that. I was in a meeting with two senior partner the managing partner of the firm and the head of the litigation department. I was a second year associate and a client came in and started telling his story and all of

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a sudden he broke down and started crying. The two men in the room jumped up, called her, and ran out of the room. So I, you know, I was there and start crying. No, but I'm a woman. I'm like, well, what's wrong? As it turned out

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there was a little fraud issue and his son had been involved. So I mean all these emotions came out after 15 minutes. He composed himself. They came back and we had the meeting. But it does point out your, your point. Yeah, I'll go to the other

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side of that one. I mean, I go in and take over their jobs or have to work with them side by side, and that's being a woman in that regard can be exactly what you say, and it has been, and I wasn't kidding about the

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mother part. I always bring somebody in underneath me who they know that, when I say underneath me, one of my staff who they know has my, everybody in the company knows has my attention. And my respect and who I'm gonna listen to to let them be

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mother sort of say to hear what everybody's got because I don't have time for that if I'm running a company in trouble. I just don't have time. That's not my role, but I will tell you it's not men do have a great resentment of

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a woman coming in and becoming the CEO because there aren't many women CEOs, period, so. So, you have to, so a lot of it is, has to be style, attitude. Do you come in, you know, with guns blazing, or do you kind of ease

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your way in and try to make people comfortable? The problem with that is, well, surely you want to try to do that. Speak up just a little bit. OK. The problem with that is that you, you don't have a lot of time. I mean, when I

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come in, we aren't making payroll next week. So you gotta be making payroll tomorrow, so I don't have a lot of time to, you know, gee, how are you? and go out for a beer, right? I think what makes it though is competency. If you're

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competent, it's fine. You have to be confident and when you have someone's in their respect, right, you have to win their respect. You gotta do it quickly because they're in trouble. This isn't like a normal bake off like for financing an M&A deal or something. You

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get, see you march every investment bank in the world, there's only 4 left, but I mean you march them all in the room. And you know and you say who's got the best pitch who do I like? I'll shave off a basis point or two.

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It's not that it's not that in restructuring it is hemorrhaging. This is triage. You're in the emergency room and you want the very best doctor and you want him now so you have to establish that credibility very early on and that's why I was saying having

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a reputation, having a referral helps you. Then once you're in the door, it's up to you and you gotta do it in about the 1st 10 minutes. Or 15 minutes or certainly half an hour because beyond that you've lost their attention if you haven't won them

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then they're on to the next one because there is no time, you know, it's interesting we've talked ahead of time and we went back and forth on some thoughts and I think the positive problem solving aspect is really important. And it seems that the challenges have

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come with us when the problems are such that they're almost impossible to solve, not because we rela, we lack the skill set, but because there's adversity, there's, it's too tough and brash, it's just, it's just very difficult, and I, Barbara, you talked about the Dow Corning

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case and that the fact that there just weren't any soft edges, you know, it was just tough. And we like to problem solve and we like to find a smooth path, but when it's, you know, adversarial and contentious and there aren't any soft edges, we find

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that difficult. We manage, but it's difficult. Well, it is difficult. That case was really probably the hardest case that I ever handled. It was a very large mass tort bankruptcy case, one of the largest that had ever filed at the time. I

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was lead debtor's counsel. The mass tort was breast implant issues. The company was incredibly successful. I mean, in the year of the company's highest sales, breast implants accounted for less than 0.5% of the company's sales. But this was a, you know, billion-dollar crisis

00:22:26.390 - 00:22:45.829

that was crippling the company. And you also have to understand, I mean, Dow Corning was in a small town, Midland, Michigan, which happened also to be, the place where it, one of its two shareholders, Dow Chemical Company resided. And you know,

00:22:46.109 - 00:23:03.160

Dow Chemical and Dow Corning between the population of the companies that are employed there has the highest PhD of any location in the country. I mean, a group of very smart people, you know, scientists, a short-termer at Dow Corning was somebody who'd been with

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the company 25 years. So this was a real, you know, they loved their company, they were very interested in this, and they felt as science ultimately proved that there really wasn't a correlation between breast implants and the ailments that the women were struggling with. And

00:23:21.310 - 00:23:38.739

so emotions ran high on every side. You know, the employees felt that their company had been wrongfully accused. Obviously, the women were absolutely convinced that their breast implants had caused these issues. The shareholders have been embroiled in the litigation. They've been brought in by the

00:23:38.739 - 00:23:56.260

plaintiffs' firms, and they were adamant that they didn't have anything to do with anything and shouldn't be there other than they were both relatively deep pockets, and, you know, the plaintiff's bar was looking for large recoveries. And the unsecured creditors were very unhappy because

00:23:56.260 - 00:24:14.699

this was a case with, you know, a billion dollars problem and not one cent of secured debt. You know, everything was an unsecured loan to the company, and you know the banks were, it was a great company and the banks were of course incredibly unhappy that,

00:24:14.790 - 00:24:29.540

you know, they were trapped as secured creditors, not unsecured creditors, not secured creditors. So there really wasn't a soft edge. I mean, you know, so how did you, how did you get through? Well, the, the, it comes back to something that Norma said, the CEO

00:24:29.540 - 00:24:48.719

and the president of Dow Corning and I became the three Musketeers, both men. And they became very dear friends. To this day, we still visited each other's homes, and, you know, we basically just knew that we'd trust each other and the CEO was

00:24:48.719 - 00:25:03.729

less involved in the breast implant and the bankruptcy case. The president was really the big contact. They divided it up. Dick, the, the CEO ran the business and Gary was involved in running the bankruptcy case with me. But at the end of the day when

00:25:03.729 - 00:25:20.810

a hard decision had to get made, I'd go to the CEO because, you know, he was ultimately the responsible party and we just and and we just bound together and did it. Bettina talk about relationship, talk about trust. You, you have had more

00:25:20.810 - 00:25:35.160

change. A lot of us kind of have done this. I don't wanna say same old, same old, but we've been lucky to be in, in a place where we felt we wanted to stay. You've, you, I can't keep a job, you just can't. And the

00:25:35.160 - 00:25:48.689

woman learned how to talk to him. And the woman learned how to swim and fly fish 3 years ago. I mean, she's, she's reinventing herself every day. So what, what about relationships? What about trust? What about things like that? I think that I have literally one

00:25:48.689 - 00:26:00.380

of the greatest things that's ever happened is I, that I learned early on that life wasn't fair. My mother told me when I was 5 years old life wasn't fair, and I know that sounds negative, but it was actually the best thing I ever learned in

00:26:00.380 - 00:26:22.410

my life because I realized life isn't fair. Move on, get over it, and just go. And so, you know, I think that, that inventing oneself and is really the thing that made me, probably desirable to people is they knew that what I

00:26:22.410 - 00:26:39.079

said was what I meant. I was honest. I'm blunt, as you all? Well, no, but I really am. I'm truthful. I'm honest. I tell it like it is, I try not to bludgeon. That's not the point I'm trying to make but it's,

00:26:39.130 - 00:26:53.160

you've got to be true to yourself. You've gotta be honest about what you're capable of. I always build a team around me of my incompetencies that fulfill the needs of the circle, because I can't do it all. But what I can do, I do,

00:26:53.280 - 00:27:06.319

and I do it well, and I do it, well prepared, and building relationships is really important to me. I've learned over the years that the best thing to have is people who are good you, you've helped mentor, and I know we're gonna talk

00:27:06.319 - 00:27:22.250

about mentoring. I'm not gonna get into that, but one of them sitting in this audience and you know, to me that's, that's really important because those people will always be there for you, always, and I think, my worst night was when I realized

00:27:22.250 - 00:27:40.079

I had been overpresenting my client in a way that other lawyers in the community who I had to deal with day to day. That their perception of me was changing and that I was losing the respect and I kind of woke up the next morning and

00:27:40.079 - 00:27:54.300

looked in the mirror and I said wait a minute you know this client may be who he is but I'm different and I'm not gonna align myself with him at the risk of how others perceive me and who I am and that respect and professionalism. And

00:27:54.300 - 00:28:06.140

how you are perceived, I told my son when he was little the things you do determine who you are, and on a Friday when he was 15, I would tell him the things you do determine who you are and I don't wanna hear on Monday

00:28:06.140 - 00:28:17.540

morning or I don't wanna be somewhere Saturday and get a phone call. I mean, if you do it, you, you can't undo it. It's part of you and same thing in practice you are what you do and how you act day in day out and one

00:28:17.540 - 00:28:30.225

of the best things. Being where we are is looking back and knowing that where we are today is because every day we had to make a choice about what to do and how to comport ourselves and we made more good decisions than bad, I think, on

00:28:30.225 - 00:28:49.072

that and I think that you've got to, I mean, I think as a lawyer you have to be able to tell the client no. I mean that's absolutely. As a CEO, I mean, well, I can't do that. Maybe now I could, I

00:28:49.072 - 00:29:01.832

guess. Couldn't as a lawyer when I was in practice, but, but, you know, I learned very early on it was a wonderful lesson for me from a senior partner in the firm that I first was with that when I got out of law school. All

00:29:01.832 - 00:29:18.199

right, let's talk about mentoring. What did you learn? Well, I, I learned that it's OK to fire a client. And sometimes it's more than OK, it's absolutely necessary and you know that was a very startling revelation. I was with at the time a

00:29:18.199 - 00:29:37.540

large firm in Dallas. I was the 55th lawyer, the 3rd woman at the firm. There was one woman partner, her name happened to be Harriet Miers, who you may have heard of before, and, the senior most litigation partner in the firm, I

00:29:37.540 - 00:29:55.459

was working on a case with him for some very prominent Dallas folks, the names you would recognize. And, one day, I came in and Stanley said, you know, pack up what you're working on and, and send it over to my office, and I was,

00:29:55.619 - 00:30:15.010

you know, oh my, midge's point, what did I do wrong? And the answer was we didn't do anything wrong, but we had declined to continue the representation of these very prominent, very wealthy folks. And I was startled and you know, he was a wonderful man

00:30:15.010 - 00:30:32.939

and he looked at me and said, All you have is your reputation. All we have as a firm is our firm's reputation, and we weren't gonna do what they wanted us to do. And so we have parted our ways. Can I get a definition of mentor?

00:30:33.209 - 00:30:51.739

Yeah, definition of mentor, and we can, we can, agree to disagree on it too. Sure, a mentor is an experienced, well established member of your profession who takes an interest in your career and facilitates your development through providing crucial information, making important introductions, serving

00:30:51.739 - 00:31:11.699

as a role model, providing support, encouragement and guidance, encouraging your participation in making decisions and in other ways makes a significant contribution to your career, more specifically, and I'm sorry to read this, but I can't memorize it, sorry, creates opportunities to operate outside

00:31:11.699 - 00:31:37.290

the organization norm, which is highly important, sets high performance standards that stimulate personal motivation, publicizes your achievements, protects you and provides a safe environment to generate and try out your new ideas, fosters learning, improves your work environment, and overall boost your job satisfaction

00:31:37.489 - 00:31:58.319

and accelerates your career progression. Can I add to that? Yes, and who views your success as a measure of his success, and I say his because my mentor was Dave Sykes who. He handed things to me and he viewed my success as the measure of his

00:31:58.319 - 00:32:13.530

success, but that's excellent thing it's the person who's the most honest with you. The biggest problem that I've found as a manager of, you know, lots and lots of people over the years or as a team leader is when there's a difficult situation, there are

00:32:13.530 - 00:32:26.699

a lot of people, men and women, who find it extremely difficult to be honest with the person, so instead they just don't promote them and don't mentor them and all that and hope it goes away or eventually fire them. The thing that

00:32:26.699 - 00:32:39.939

I think I do well and I think other good mentors do well is they look at you and say you need to change certain things. You're too harsh. You, the way you communicate doesn't work. The way you appear does not work professionally, etc. etc. Those are

00:32:39.939 - 00:32:51.250

very hard messages, but they're some of the best you can ever get when somebody says, you know what, you're really great, but you don't know how to listen. That, that's actually you need to hear that and I think the difficult feedback is the hardest thing so

00:32:51.250 - 00:33:06.250

a mentor who can do that is actually serving you well you should listen most closely to criticism you're right mentors take personal risks that's something you all have to remember if you're being mentored by someone and you screw up, it reflects on them and depending

00:33:06.250 - 00:33:19.599

on how badly you screw up and how strong a mentor they've been and how active a mentor they've been, it could be a real problem. Dave Sykes once said to me, lower your voice. Now that sounds like a very sexist thing to say, but he's

00:33:19.869 - 00:33:36.599

absolutely right. If you, if I'm in court and there is a, you know, a woman at the podium arguing and she gets shrill, woo woo, you, you, you zone out. Everybody zones out, but if you speak with a lower voice of authority, it has impact.

00:33:37.000 - 00:33:49.239

You know, for him to say that to me, for all he knew, I would, you know, go leave the job and say, you know, I was outraged at whether he would say that. Marcia, you probably had similar situations. I've had similar experiences, and I

00:33:49.239 - 00:34:03.435

think your tone and how you present yourself is all about confidence. And I think when Judge Rendell opened up and talked about the woman who thinks she did something wrong as compared to the man who, you know, it's clearly the razor, that is a theme that

00:34:03.435 - 00:34:20.719

I see over and over again. And we, I think mentoring is incredibly important, thankfully we have a lot of women in our practice today. And, I told this last night, but I think a mentor, the success of a mentor is measured by

00:34:20.719 - 00:34:35.439

the success of those he or she mentors, and we have this program in the firm and I introduced Harvey and I said, you may find this surprising, but 33% of the partners in our restructuring department are women, and he didn't even register that that was

00:34:35.439 - 00:34:49.040

true. And I think, you know, he was sort of always an inadvertent mentor because he treated everybody that way. I mean, if you, no, I mean, good and bad and brutally honest and, very, you know, in many times difficult to

00:34:49.040 - 00:35:02.629

work for or with, as the case depending how senior you were. But I think that's very important, but then it goes to confidence. I think one of the things he would, he said to me early on is speak up. And I think that's

00:35:02.629 - 00:35:14.620

a woman's issue is, you know, you have to feel like you could speak up of course in more recent times he says to me, why'd you talk so much? Because you told me to speak up and he says you know he, he's the

00:35:14.620 - 00:35:27.969

one at fault. But we showed this video in a in a women's breakfast we had in my department. It was the COO, I think of Google, I think she was the COO, and her theme was be at the table. And you'd be surprised how much

00:35:29.020 - 00:35:46.100

conversation. That gene generated in the room with my partners, this is just the women in my restructuring group, and my associates, about how they felt about that comment, and a lot of times women like gives up her seat to a man. You're just

00:35:46.100 - 00:36:01.010

as important because you're being nice. How many times have you been in a conference room when the phone rings and who gets it? OK, close the door or closes the door or gets up to open the door or, you know, I still clean

00:36:01.010 - 00:36:14.209

the conference table. I mean, you know, things like that, you know, if somebody spills something, you know, because you can't help, it's almost like you can't help yourself, I don't really do that, but you know, in a

00:36:14.209 - 00:36:31.419

we'd have this conference room in our department, and the guys would just get up and leave and then one day one of my partners, a woman said. You guys, would you clean up that conference table and this young associate complained, called her a

00:36:31.419 - 00:36:47.530

witch, and I was like well. So. It's just that they were so not used to sort of the, you know, kind of taking care of things and doing things together where it's late at night, no one's gonna clean up after you and they were kind

00:36:47.530 - 00:37:02.239

of just leaving it to the girls, that kind of thing we put up a sign, and it was generated by the women associates, a sign in our conference, center kitchen, your mother does not work here. And the men need that. The women don't.

00:37:02.290 - 00:37:12.550

The men need that. Women though, yeah, can I, can I change it a little bit in terms of the mentoring and go back to, I think it's really important to know who your mentors are, identify them. If you don't have one, think about getting one. I've

00:37:12.550 - 00:37:24.360

been very fortunate. I'm just gonna quickly tick them off because each taught me something important. My parents started with and it was all about education. They're both teachers. They had 5 of us. Every single one of us is overeducated, but the fact of the matter is,

00:37:24.489 - 00:37:36.090

like, it mattered. The more you learn, the more you can do, and it's that way to this day. The second one I would say more recent one was our CEO Jamie Dimon when he appointed me treasurer of the firm. I knew nothing about treasury. I

00:37:36.090 - 00:37:49.649

said no 10 times and finally took it on the eve of the Lehman bankruptcy 10 days before. It was taking risk. His view was you learn from what you do, not from what you don't, a famous quote, but it's very true. So take risks, take personal

00:37:49.649 - 00:38:02.340

risks. We talk about it a lot, but actually doing the deep end of the pool at a time of crisis is, is amazing. For your career, so I would say that you gotta know the details and you gotta do it well. Jimmy Lee, another one many

00:38:02.340 - 00:38:12.699

people know in the financing world always told me two things one, be the best you can be, which sounds obvious, but you gotta think about that every day. Like every day I just gotta do the very best I can because like you said, people are

00:38:12.699 - 00:38:25.100

gonna remember what you do. What have you done formily or what's the last thing you did? And the other thing was the clients pay the bills. You can never forget that you're actually working for someone, so it's not always about you. It is about the

00:38:25.100 - 00:38:35.550

clients and doing the right thing for them. And then I'd say lastly, and one of my favorite things came from Bill Repko, who many of you know worked at JP Morgan for a long time now at Evercore, and what he said to me, he said, when

00:38:35.550 - 00:38:50.189

you get in a room with a client, he said, just remember this one thing no one cares how much you know until they know how much you care. And in a restructuring environment that matters a ton, so be human first. And listen, and as soon

00:38:50.189 - 00:39:01.389

as they appreciate and understand, you're gonna laser focused, you're gonna help them. The other thing, don't put a BlackBerry or phone on the table in front of you when you're talking to a client. You've just sent a message that they're not the most important thing in

00:39:01.389 - 00:39:12.469

the room. Something else might come that you have to step away for. Do not, do not check your BlackBerry when you're sitting with a client, especially one in trouble. I don't care who it is, like unless somebody in your family is either having a baby or

00:39:12.469 - 00:39:25.899

dying. Which you should say that's why you're doing it otherwise don't do it so I think those lessons, you know, kind of feel the fear and do it anyway, which is the way I always think about it the only woman you've mentioned who was

00:39:25.899 - 00:39:40.350

a mentor was your mother that's right now does mentoring come naturally to women? Do we, do we need to work at it? Do we seek mentors from above or if we're above do we reach down? Who was it who said there's a special place reserved

00:39:40.350 - 00:39:56.330

in hell for women who don't help other women, but, but sometimes I think, yeah, well, whatever, I forgot, but, but, you know, how, how do we institutionalize, you know, we, we say we like to help people problem solve, but I think sometimes women are the worst

00:39:56.790 - 00:40:12.300

at mentoring other women, and well, that's true. I see my, my former partners at my firm more now than I did when I was in the firm because I was just too busy and we'll get to balance I think that's true, Midge, and I think

00:40:12.300 - 00:40:34.080

it's in part because particularly as we were growing up, um. I feel like you had to work harder to succeed than male associates at the firm did, and as a result, I think you were so focused on success and developing, developing the relationships with clients and

00:40:34.080 - 00:40:49.159

learning how to make rain and do other things and go home and take care of kids if you had kids and, and so I think it has been difficult, uh, just a funny mentoring story because it picks up on what frankly everybody has said. Um, Mickey

00:40:49.159 - 00:41:04.489

Steinfeld ultimately became my mentor, um, after becoming a partner at the first firm that I had been with, Mickey reached out to me and, and, um, asked me to move from the current firm that I've been with, and, and you have to understand when I got

00:41:04.489 - 00:41:20.129

out of law school in 1978, um, the mentality of firms was you were going there for the rest of your career, and that's startling to many of you in the room because that's no longer really the mentality. Uh, and so when I joined a firm called

00:41:20.129 - 00:41:38.169

Locke Purnell Born Laney and Neely that is now Loch Lord, um. I thought I'd be there forever and I loved the firm and so frankly when Mickey Shinfeld, who had a national bankruptcy reputation, called me and said, I want to talk to you about coming over

00:41:38.169 - 00:41:53.300

to our Dallas office and actually heading it up as the shareholder in charge of the office, I told him no. I, I'm happy where I am. Thank you very much. I'm flattered and, and he said to me, well, I thought we were friends. Well I am

00:41:53.300 - 00:42:11.120

and so you know the rest is history. I joined the firm, became the shareholder in charge of the Dallas office, and Mickey's a wonderful, a wonderful man still in practice, um, and he was somebody that it became so clear to me just from his example, um,

00:42:11.199 - 00:42:27.209

and I think that, you know, Judy will probably say this if I don't, so I'll confess I think I was a tough litigator and a tough lawyer as a younger lawyer. Um, and in part that was because, you know, you didn't know when you'd already won

00:42:27.500 - 00:42:42.370

if that makes any sense, um, you know, you, you didn't let people up for fear that they were gonna sort of come back and bite you, uh, and so I, as I got to know Mickey and as Mickey made opportunities available to me, it became clear

00:42:42.370 - 00:42:59.949

to me. That I couldn't go anywhere in the country without people telling me a Mickey Seinfeld story. When they learned I was with Seinfeld, Mali, and Kay, it was like, oh, it's so great to meet you, that Mickey, he's the and, and so it became clear

00:42:59.949 - 00:43:17.580

that his adversaries loved him, people that he had whipped up on loved him, and I thought, well, I need to soften up because, you know, you don't have. To be sort of this hard-nosed to be successful, I think that's that's an issue and that's part of

00:43:17.580 - 00:43:32.370

coming to terms with who you are and figuring out who you are and, and I know switch a little bit to kind of the life balancing. I had a tough time raising my child. I have one child who's now 31. And when he was young and

00:43:32.370 - 00:43:49.050

I was toughing it out, I would come home and I would walk in the door and kind of make him toe the line, you know, and suddenly, suddenly I realized, wait a minute, when I turned the key I need to go from tough to nurture. There

00:43:49.050 - 00:44:03.709

is no nurture there was no nurturer in my career, nothing, so it was literally a Jekyll Hyde thing. Uh, and I think that's, I think that's very tough, and I think we all had to figure out also how to deal with men at work that toughing

00:44:03.709 - 00:44:17.175

it out didn't always work. I mean, I resorted to humor all the time. I had this one closing where the guy kept calling me honey, so I decided to call him Buster and. After a while, after a while, the clients just were like, what is it

00:44:17.175 - 00:44:28.574

with you guys? So that he stopped calling me honey and I stopped calling him Buster and we got the deal done. But you, you know, I did it with instead of taking him out to the woodshed, I just, you know, did it with humor. But you,

00:44:28.885 - 00:44:42.080

there's so much to figure out. How to, how to be what you wanna be, it's not just doing your work, and you know you think working is good enough. I, and I really did. I thought working was good enough, but you need to do something else.

00:44:42.120 - 00:44:57.780

You need to figure out how you, who you need to be with whom, you know, when I was Alex's Partners, everybody knows Bob Donerman, and Bob. Bob Dongerman is 66 and an imposing man. And, and very good at what he does. And so somebody once said

00:44:57.780 - 00:45:12.739

to me, um, you know, somebody high up in the firm once said to me, you know, Bettina, you would be much better if you were just like Bob Bob Donermon. I looked at him and went, Well, I'd love to be 6'6, but I don't think I'm

00:45:12.739 - 00:45:26.820

gonna get there. And for me to try, so you know, I tried to do some of Bob Dongerman type stuff, it didn't work. It wasn't you. It wasn't me. And for 6 months or maybe a little bit longer, I didn't bring in a single case. I

00:45:26.820 - 00:45:43.050

lost every single pitch. Because I was trying to be Bob Donermon, and I realized Bob Donermon couldn't be Bettina White and be successful, and I couldn't be Bob Donermon and be successful, and why did I even think I should try because I must be doing something

00:45:43.050 - 00:45:55.800

wrong or I wouldn't have been told, right? And of course that goes back to you got to be true to yourself and comfortable in your own skin and if you try to be something you're not, it doesn't mean you can't learn from other people and improve.

00:45:56.120 - 00:46:07.679

It just means you still have to be who you are and what's made you successful you have to use and you have to use your skills. Uh, I won't mention the firm name, but Midge knows there's a firm in Philadelphia and we used to call them

00:46:07.679 - 00:46:23.149

the screamers and whenever we had a case against them. Whenever we had a case against them, I, well, I would prep my client and say, listen, we're gonna go in, they're gonna scream, scream, scream, scream, scream, we're gonna not say a word, and when they're done,

00:46:23.729 - 00:46:39.699

we'll say, all right, here's our proposal, and I would counter their screaming with low reasonable calm. And at first the client was like, oh my God, we're being killed, we're being killed. Why isn't she screaming back? And after like 15 minutes, a half an hour, like,

00:46:39.739 - 00:46:58.419

yeah, we're the reasonable ones, they're crazy. And then you could see their clients start thinking, why is he yelling? Um, and it was very, very effective. You find out what you're good at, what you're comfortable, what your style is. Use that. I think you learn you

00:46:58.419 - 00:47:17.840

can only control yourself. You can't control the other person, so you can't make other people behave, right. Well, and you can take actions unless you're. At least, but I, I have always found that, you know, one, we cannot be our mentors. We learn from our mentors,

00:47:18.100 - 00:47:30.570

um, and you know, one thing, and I think you've heard it again and again, is, you know. Excellence in your in your job is the number one thing I think I learned from my mentor, and when I said inadvertent mentor, it wasn't a negative. It was

00:47:30.750 - 00:47:46.522

if you were performing high quality work, you were going to get the benefits of the mentoring whether you were a man or a woman, and I was lucky that way, um, uh. Harvey, that's all he cared about. I mean, he cared about a lot of things

00:47:46.522 - 00:48:06.105

about your career, but the preeminent thing in his view was, are we delivering quality, excellence, etc. etc. But he also gave a lot of advice about career building, uh, being involved in organizations. You know, uh, ABI didn't exist then, but as an example, like I tell

00:48:06.105 - 00:48:19.696

my associates, why don't you get active in, in ABI, do, do something where you can not only learn but, you know, meet people and so the idea that you should write and speak and, you know, build your career, you know, was something instilled in me that

00:48:19.696 - 00:48:38.669

I continue to instill, um. And all my associates, but, but back on this toughness issue, I, I think that that's always a hard place for a woman. I think that it's um important for your adversaries to know how tough you can be. And delivering that at

00:48:38.669 - 00:48:54.219

the right time so that they actually know you're going to be tough in court, that they actually know you can be tough in a negotiation. Is very important, but you can't act like a jerk all the time. I mean, because if you think you have to

00:48:54.219 - 00:49:10.659

be, you know, Mr. or Ms. Aggressive, you know, pounding, pounding, pounding all the time, you are not delivering the service to your client because, you know, and I actually think that, um, uh, as a woman, you, you, one, you almost have to be a little more

00:49:10.659 - 00:49:22.159

conscious of that. I, I don't think that's fair. I'm I'm with Patino. Life isn't fair, so you have to work with it. Um, but also we have, you know, in our own, uh, makeup in a sense. I, I do believe the genetic makeup, you know, contributes

00:49:22.159 - 00:49:40.389

a lot to how we handle things that we are good listeners, uh, we are good compromisers, we are, uh, uh, always working out conflict. We're always good in an emergency, I think, uh, or, or generally. And you know, especially in the restructuring field, uh, going back

00:49:40.389 - 00:49:56.030

to, you know, what Norma was talking about, you know, listening to her and Bettina in particular, you know, she comes with the biggest checkbook in the world, so these CEOs, and in addition to, you know, giving good advice, they, they are gonna spill out their, their,

00:49:56.149 - 00:50:09.639

their needs to her. Now Bettina, she's a little different, you know, she's a little bit of a threat, uh, a little bit, but now I'm only 51. She's the threat, but, but she has to work her way in. As the lawyer, you're, you're a little different,

00:50:09.689 - 00:50:24.810

you know, it's, I found over the course of my career, you have to gain the confidence of a male CEO because we have to deal with CEOs in our field, uh, to take advice from a woman, and that's a hard, I think that's a hard nut

00:50:24.810 - 00:50:39.590

to crack because they're not used to it. But when once they start it they'll like it and I think it it is that comfort level once they, you know, once they start getting your advice and then they start asking you. And as a restructuring lawyer, you

00:50:39.590 - 00:50:55.969

are their soul. This is one advantage we have in client relationships. No other lawyer is needed so badly every minute of the day, you know, something happens, they're going to call you any hour of the day and you're there for them. It's not the mother thing,

00:50:56.080 - 00:51:14.635

but you're there for them. I also think, and I found in my experience. Experience that getting to know the CEO's spouse was incredibly important, um, because then, because frankly, you know, for years you're on their speed dial. I mean they're, you're the first person they call

00:51:15.445 - 00:51:30.149

when almost anything bad happens if you've done your job right and they've developed the relationship that you hope to have with them. But that that can be a little intimidating to the spouse and you've got and threatening and so I always found that, you know, I'd

00:51:30.149 - 00:51:45.020

spend time with the spouse and get to know them so they realized that you know I had no interest in their husband um other than to help with the company's problem and to solve that. Um, and so I think that that that can be something, and

00:51:45.020 - 00:51:59.879

I think other, other people can overlook that from time to time. Well, I also think the other part of that is the spouse plays a huge role in how the emotional aspects of the CEO or any of the high executive level people go and are responding

00:51:59.879 - 00:52:11.790

to not just you, but to the situation. And I think it's helpful to get a read on that. You can't do anything about it, but it's helpful to understand it because then you can understand where some of the things might be coming from or some of

00:52:11.790 - 00:52:25.800

the maybe the aggressions or even the concerns. Don't forget all these people are worried about losing their jobs and they're. Spouses are too. Yeah, let's switch gears a little bit for the last little few minutes before the break and talk about something that I, um, I

00:52:25.800 - 00:52:43.000

actually sent questionnaires out so we could kind of know each other and our thoughts before we were doing this. It, it's really because she's an attentive like the rest of us. Very true, very true, um, but I didn't, I didn't, yeah, that's right, and I. I

00:52:43.000 - 00:53:00.399

can make you behave. But I didn't ask anything about the D word. Discrimination. I didn't ask about that and yet Bettina you came back talking about change and that you'd left a couple places when you felt there wasn't fairness in the workplace. I think I was

00:53:00.399 - 00:53:15.399

lucky to be in a place with a mentor who. I think protected me from the discrimination and who helped me helped said to the client she's your lawyer if you have a problem you come to me she's your lawyer and you won't have a problem uh

00:53:15.399 - 00:53:27.225

and I I think I went to my firm because Jane Dalton was there she had a busy husband, one child and one on the way and they loved her so I went there. Because I thought this was a place where I wouldn't have to face that,

00:53:27.544 - 00:53:43.495

but you, you had a couple situations. I didn't, and everybody here is facing it or wondering if they're facing it. I mentored two women very strongly, one at PW and one at Alex Partners, and in both those situations, um, for different reasons, but in both those

00:53:43.495 - 00:54:03.959

situations, the woman was up for partner. And in each case, and she was not going to be made a partner. And in both those cases I handed in my resignation. It wasn't accepted. But both those women were made partners that year. And the reason I did

00:54:03.959 - 00:54:21.100

that was I felt so strongly that these people were really ready. They were more ready than many of the other parties on the, the roll that were gonna be made partners, and that I didn't wanna work for an organization. That wasn't going to recognize a woman

00:54:21.500 - 00:54:34.320

because of that. I actually had a situation when I was younger when I was with Continental Bank where one of my proteges was going to be made a vice president and I was on the list as well, and my mentor, who was both of Barb's boss,

00:54:34.479 - 00:54:48.489

uh, was told that I couldn't be made a vice president that year because I'd be the youngest vice president ever. OK, now that had a lot to do with the price of tea in China, right? So he took the mail off as well. He said if

00:54:48.489 - 00:55:01.459

patina is not gonna be made, and so I guess that's where I learned, but I took really decisive steps because I was, I literally handed in my resignation in both cases, and they both, both times the person I handed to said, Oh, you're just joking. And

00:55:01.459 - 00:55:16.429

I said, Read it, and I walked out the door. Well, sometimes there's not a realization on their part that they're, that they're doing this. I mean, I remember a time when, uh, another, a male partner and I were at the same level, and he got the

00:55:16.429 - 00:55:33.330

bigger office and I got the smaller office, and I wasn't even thinking about it. Of course he was bigger than I was too, so maybe he, his legs, you know, they went up, but that, but, but then secretaries came to me. And said oh you really

00:55:33.330 - 00:55:46.629

got, you know, where there was murmuring at the coffee station or whatever and I went to the chair of the firm and he was so upset he didn't he didn't realize and he remedied it he got me a bigger office but I, I truly believe he

00:55:46.629 - 00:55:59.310

didn't realize but he was. Doing it, he was doing it it was there and it was, it was having, you know, tentacles go out to other people in the firm in terms of, you know, perception and, and, uh, you gotta call people on it you gotta

00:55:59.310 - 00:56:17.709

call. I think that's right, but I think, you know, there's also gotta be balance there, um, you know. You need to be self-reflective. You may think something is discriminatory, but, but, but maybe it's really not, um, particularly when we all were starting, um, I mean, a,

00:56:18.000 - 00:56:35.020

a judge, uh, who was not yet a judge, but became one of the most highly respected district court judges in the country, uh, and who sadly has passed within the last few years. Um, I remember vividly when I interviewed with him at his firm, he looked

00:56:35.020 - 00:56:58.520

at me and said, How are you gonna balance being a mother and a career and, and you know, was that discriminatory? Probably, probably yes, but at the time it was a fair question because frankly my sense was that he didn't. He, he was just curious. I

00:56:58.520 - 00:57:12.050

mean, you know, women in the profession were a little bit of an anomaly, you know, there were more of us coming. But you know, I, I viewed that as just a sincere question and of course today, you know, people would cry foul. You can't ask that

00:57:12.050 - 00:57:24.239

sort of thing. So I think you have to have a, a sense. One point that I'd like to make that picks up on Midge's that I think is so important, you said that Dave said to the client, This is your lawyer. If you have a problem,

00:57:24.320 - 00:57:42.629

call me. You won't have a problem. Mickey did something similar that was almost. Equally or more important, I was involved in a case. It was fairly litigious. Um, our constituency ended up doing exceedingly well in the case, and a very senior partner from New York who

00:57:42.629 - 00:58:02.560

had known Mickey for a long time was unhappy with me. Um, and so what does he do? He calls Mickey, as I put it, he calls Dad. Uh, and just, you know, about this and about that, and apparently Mickey listen politely, which is Mickey, and at

00:58:02.560 - 00:58:17.830

the end of the call he said, you know, if you got a problem with Barb, you're gonna have to talk to Barb. And about 15 minutes after the call ends, I get a phone call from Mickey who's giggling, and he says, you're doing everything right in

00:58:17.830 - 00:58:36.290

the case click. And you know that that taught me that you know that was exactly the right thing to do. Don't don't feed into that don't let them call you and complain, you know, put them back to where it is put it back to me if

00:58:36.290 - 00:58:51.139

there's a problem you're gonna have to deal with Barb and then of course the support which was perfect, was to give me the assurance that yeah I got the call you'll probably hear about it. Um, but frankly, after everything I heard, I'm convinced you're handling the

00:58:51.139 - 00:59:11.165

case just exactly right. OK, on that note, um, I think it's time for a break. When we come back, we'll be talking about life balance or lack thereof, and, uh. So we'll say 10 minute break, which means we'll reconvene in 15 minutes. Now we thought we'd

00:59:11.165 - 00:59:25.919

talk a little bit about life balance or imbalance or like somebody says you talk about balance, not juggling, because if you say juggling it means you're going to drop something. But even if you say balance, you're going to drop something, so who cares? I think we

00:59:25.919 - 00:59:48.889

decided as a group that we actually flunked life balance, um, but we also agreed there's probably no perfect time to do certain things like have children. I first came to the realization that there really, really, really was a God because children grow up. Um, and I

00:59:48.889 - 01:00:02.030

also, life balance became such an issue for me that I actually went to a four-day work week. Um, so that I could spend a little more time with my son and let him know that he was the most important thing in my life, which I think

01:00:02.030 - 01:00:13.870

he wasn't sure of at some point. And I went and I said I want to go 4 days a week and 80% pay, and they said that's fine. At the end of the year, they gave me back the other 20% because guess what? I had worked

01:00:13.870 - 01:00:28.129

110% even though I only showed up 4 days a week. So that's another way of saying my firm was absolutely a fabulous place to be, um, but. You know it is tough. There is no balance for some time. You're trying to, you know, everybody's talking about

01:00:28.129 - 01:00:41.469

can you have it all? Can you do it all? You probably can't. You can't do it all well, but the problem with women is we love to do it all. I mean, I have this theory that a lot of women are not CEOs because they don't

01:00:41.810 - 01:00:57.100

want to be single foam focus because it means giving up a lot of other things that they want to do or need to do, whether it's aging parents, whether it's children. Um, because it is, it requires sacrifice. I mean that's not across the board, but, um,

01:00:57.110 - 01:01:09.429

I know myself I did not want to be on the firm management committee. I had a very busy husband. I was busy in my life and, and I just knew I couldn't handle that and I couldn't throw off the other things that I either had to

01:01:09.429 - 01:01:22.209

or wanted to do, um, in order to do that. So it's tough, but there's a lot of stress. There were times I would come home and cry. Uh, and say I can't do this, and my husband would say, I don't care if the dishes are done,

01:01:22.270 - 01:01:34.689

I don't care about food, I'll pick it up. I don't care if the house is clean. Uh, and, but for that, I, but for that and the fact that at the time I knew if I didn't, if I did cop out. Then the firm would at

01:01:34.689 - 01:01:48.810

some point stop investing in women because these firms make investments in us, in all of us, and if women as a block are not, you know, they stay for 5 years and then leave, somebody's gonna put 2 and 2 together and say, well then why are

01:01:48.810 - 01:02:05.889

we investing in them? And I have a current fear about that in the marketplace now. But let's talk about balance and, and how you do it, and Barbara's now coming to it with a 12-year-old soccer playing stepson. Um, as her first child and Norma with her

01:02:05.889 - 01:02:15.409

children and, and not just children but aging parents and, and other demands on your life, so I'll, I'll take it really quickly. The, the one thing I say, you said you can't have it all, and you know I think it's been said a bunch of times.

01:02:15.489 - 01:02:25.290

Um, I've always thought you could have it all but not all at the same time, which I think is, uh, one thing to think about. So there's a time and place for everything. The other thing I always think about, I try to do this, and you

01:02:25.290 - 01:02:34.976

reminded me when you said, you know, you came in the door. When you turn the key you had to turn to something else mine is sort of live in the moment like I cherish when I'm sitting at dinner with my husband or when I'm sitting down

01:02:34.976 - 01:02:45.125

with my kids and I try to just block out everything else for that moment likewise when I'm sitting with a client, I try to block out what I'm gonna do on the weekend or what I've got to get done, you know, between now and then so

01:02:45.125 - 01:02:58.162

it's a little bit of real focus in the moment and I think people that do that well end up you always describe them as car. Charismatic or think or making you feel like the most important person in the room and you remember those people so I

01:02:58.162 - 01:03:11.602

try to be that person that that at the moment like here I'm here doing this I'm not thinking about what I'm doing tomorrow or tonight or something else because you wanna be you wanna give everything to that moment so that that's one thing um the other

01:03:11.602 - 01:03:26.699

thing and uh you know I think it's just a fact of the of the situation is I have a husband who's a teacher. Uh, he's been a, a high school band teacher for, uh, you know, the better half of 35 years, and, um, he loves kids.

01:03:26.830 - 01:03:41.389

He absolutely spent more time raising my two grown sons who are now in their mid-20s, uh, than I did, although on the weekends I was there. I pretty much tried to travel not on the weekends, and Friday night dinner was like sacrosanct, so you know we

01:03:41.389 - 01:03:53.750

were going to dinner Friday night and with the boys and then Barnes and Noble to buy him a book because I tried hard, but, um, but. But uh but you know it was it you had to find what worked for you so um are there times

01:03:53.750 - 01:04:05.550

when you didn't get it right for sure but I had to look in the mirror and say am I happy? I my family happy? And for me I need to work like it's important to me it's a really important part of who I am and the

01:04:05.550 - 01:04:16.780

development and. And so I, I don't think I could have been a stay home mom. Uh, I could've if a child was sick and needed me. I'm quite sure, but if, you know, you're, you happen to have the situation that allows you to do it, then

01:04:16.780 - 01:04:35.040

you've got to figure out for yourself, but it's going to be different for everyone. Well, I, I think that's right. Um, I am the worst example of balancing your life, uh, than you could possibly ever hope for. No, we've gotten well. I, I used to. Bettina

01:04:35.040 - 01:04:48.459

has been a dear friend of mine for a very long time and I used to say that that the reason that we became attracted to each other, at least the reason I was attracted to Bettina as a person was because she made me look good. Uh,

01:04:48.709 - 01:05:07.729

and you know that required a lot, um, you know, it's unfair. But true, but true, that's right, it was unfair. The, the reality is, is for the entire time that I was in practice, it was my life. I loved what I was doing. Um, some would

01:05:07.729 - 01:05:23.669

say I was pretty good at it, and I have no regrets about that. Uh, but my mother died and like Norma, my parents were very important to me. Um, uh, my brother and I were the first people in our family to go to college, neither of

01:05:23.669 - 01:05:41.429

my parents, uh, went to college, and, uh, education was extremely important to my mother who would have liked to have become a lawyer, uh, but didn't have the opportunities to do that, um, and my dad was a very hardworking man who became very financially successful. Ultimately

01:05:41.429 - 01:05:55.580

as a child we were pretty poor. Uh, but my dad worked hard and instilled in me a, you know, uh, the sense that if I worked hard, I could accomplish anything. And so I used to say that I might not be the smartest person around, but

01:05:55.580 - 01:06:15.639

there was nobody that would work harder than me. And, uh, that worked for me for a very long time. My mom died, um, while I was preparing Dow Corning for a bankruptcy filing. Um, and of course, uh, that hit me very hard. Uh, she'd always been

01:06:15.639 - 01:06:29.760

there for me. Uh, it was a, a very difficult time. My dad died about a year and a half after my mother did, uh, while I was in the middle of the Dow Corning case, um, and you know, I think the death of my mother followed

01:06:29.760 - 01:06:47.070

by the death of my father really caused me to sit back and, and sort of begin to reflect. My mom died, uh, shortly after my 40th birthday. And, uh, it was much, much too soon. I expected that we would have many, many more years together. And,

01:06:47.189 - 01:07:05.760

uh, you know, it really caused me, uh, to start thinking about, you know, what did I want to be when I grew up. And I concluded that After all these years, the person that I was really competing against was me. And that I was happy with

01:07:05.760 - 01:07:23.639

me, that I was happy with what I had accomplished, and that I didn't need to unless I wanted to keep at that same pace. And then a wonderful opportunity as Dow Corning was winding down and I knew it was going to be a successful resolution, a

01:07:23.639 - 01:07:37.750

vacancy occurred on the bankruptcy bench in Dallas. I had always thought that at some point in my career I would be interested in doing that. Um, and so I knew myself well enough to know that, you know, I could go to the firm and say I

01:07:37.750 - 01:07:51.070

want to work 80%. Um, I'll do rainmaking, I'll bring the cases in, but I'm gonna turn them over or largely turn them over to other people to run, um, and 20 minutes after I said that, you know, the first big case would file and I'd be

01:07:51.070 - 01:08:07.919

off chasing it and, you know, I'd be right back where I was. So I knew there had to be some big change, uh, or I wouldn't. Have a life and I'd reached the point where having a life, uh, was important to me and so, you know,

01:08:07.959 - 01:08:21.720

as luck would have it, I applied, I got the position, uh, and I still don't have a very good balance but it's better than it was and I now am blessed to have a 12 year old stepson in my life, um, and so, you know, go

01:08:21.720 - 01:08:38.890

figure at 57 I'm a soccer mom. But there was something else that happened during Dow Corny that I think was important that I always think of with you, um, and I think it's important for all of us to, to remember your, your mother was sick for

01:08:38.890 - 01:08:56.379

a very long time and you would go every weekend almost to see her during this horrible case, and, um, I think the ability to have enough faith in the people who work with you. And for you where you can turn over a lot of the reins

01:08:56.680 - 01:09:11.499

to be able to to do this is is an important lesson for women. Women are more, uh, I think. Uh, have a harder time delegating in many cases or learning at least how to delegate, uh, once they learn I think they're fine at it, but I

01:09:11.499 - 01:09:24.338

think you were able to turn things over to Craig or other people in the in the firm, um, at least for the periods of time that you needed to and rely upon them, um, to help you and I don't think, I think women are always afraid

01:09:24.338 - 01:09:41.669

to ask for help. I've never been afraid to ask for help. I know I need help. And um I think it's really an essential lesson to be comfortable enough in yourself to say to. Your coworkers, your friends, whatever it may be, I need help. And when

01:09:41.669 - 01:09:53.959

my husband was dying, I needed help and you know I turned to a lot of the people in this room, some of this at this table, and they were there for me, and there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, it's a strength, it's not a weakness.

01:09:54.120 - 01:10:07.229

I, I say to young women, gather together your four best friends and make a pact. That you will call on each other when in need and if this one can't can't do it, she'll call the next one and the next one and you'll you call on

01:10:07.229 - 01:10:18.750

each other. We don't do this. Men do it all the time. They love it and we love to help each other, but we never ask. And I say to these young women, part of your, your life and trying to balance your life has to be that

01:10:18.750 - 01:10:29.759

it's 6 a.m. in the morning and that kid is sick and you gotta be on the 7:30 flight to Boston. You, you call this one and if this one can't do it, call the next one and somebody's there in a half hour or 20. Minutes taking

01:10:29.759 - 01:10:42.600

care of that child because guess what we can do that we love to do that and then we return the favor later we get but we get into impossible situations that make life crazy and we just deal with ourselves or we take it out on other

01:10:42.600 - 01:10:54.319

people. We should, you know, we love to embrace each other and we should really do that so that that's actually when I talk to young women I say make a pact. If you take one thing from what I've said, I want you to go get your

01:10:54.319 - 01:11:10.299

4 friends, and the 5 of you have a pact anyway, sorry, Marsha. Well, I do have my, my 4 or 5 closest friends from college. Um, we never had that pact, and we were never conveniently located with each other, um, to, to take care of each

01:11:10.299 - 01:11:25.810

other's kids, etc. But, you know, I'm finding interestingly, I'll take this little aside on the pact issue that now, um, you know, as we're, uh, older, um, we want to see each other more. We want to share more. Um, and our husbands have become, you know,

01:11:25.930 - 01:11:39.229

great friends, uh, over the years as well, so friendship is very important, but I didn't rely on it, and, you know, maybe I, I could have done better in that, and I, and I was always very independent. Um, I was listening to Barbara and, and thinking

01:11:39.649 - 01:11:55.890

we are all what we are made from. I was an orphan when I was 26, so I had to be independent. I didn't have parents to, you know, as the crutch. Uh, I was married, so I had a nice mother-in-law, you know, for a while, uh,

01:11:55.899 - 01:12:11.970

but, uh, that could basically. No, she unfortunately she also died fairly young, but, um, and my son's very independent, um, because, you know, they're two working parents, and I, I always remember in school, I mean, I, it would drive me crazy that I always thought he

01:12:11.970 - 01:12:24.939

was stubborn and then the kindergarten or first grade teacher would say, your son is so independent and persistent, and these were all viewed as compliments, and I'd say to myself, OK, that's probably a good thing. Um, and, and indeed in his life, uh, it has been

01:12:24.939 - 01:12:41.229

a good thing, but in terms of balance, I was, um, I'm always, uh, stymied when the younger women, uh, in my firm, and we all do talk, uh, in groups, ask when's the best time to have children. That I cannot answer. Each one of the partners

01:12:41.229 - 01:12:56.229

in my group, we have a partner who's 40-ish with, with no children and not married, and we have a partner, uh, who, uh, with 3 children that she, uh, raised and was part-time for a good part of that. Um, then we have uh one with also

01:12:56.229 - 01:13:12.399

1 child but had it younger than I did, and each one of us. Managed our life in terms of children, no children, when we had them differently. So for me, I was lucky, you heard a little bit at the beginning of my stories. I was young

01:13:12.399 - 01:13:28.520

when I started at Wild Goel. I started when I was 23 years old. There was no way I was even thinking about children. And um, so I built my career. I didn't have uh uh uh my son until I was already a partner. Um, I was

01:13:28.520 - 01:13:44.120

34 when I became pregnant, gave birth when I was 35, uh, which, you know, today is not dramatically old, but, um, I'd say that for me that worked. Um, now do I have I, I, I, I have a little bit of regret that I didn't have

01:13:44.120 - 01:13:58.040

a second child, um, although I'm perfectly happy with the one I have, and we had a great. Great life, um, and so you know sometimes you can revisit and say, oh, you know, should I have started a little earlier, etc. but for me at the time

01:13:58.459 - 01:14:15.490

I was not interested. In having a child, I didn't feel deprived. I, I really didn't feel deprived that I wasn't having my children, and, but I was very excited when I had my son, and then we were two working lawyers, uh, we had no supports, no

01:14:15.490 - 01:14:28.520

family support system, and so we had the nanny, and God forbid there were days when the nanny doesn't show or calls and then, you know, my husband and I would have to look at our calendars and who was gonna suffer the least that day and my

01:14:28.520 - 01:14:44.240

husband will tell you the story. There he was with the stroller in Central Park on, you know, the when cell phones first came out and they were this big. You know, strolling, you know, etc. uh, and he would come home and tell me how all these,

01:14:44.350 - 01:14:56.200

you know, attractive women would come over to him because they thought that, you know, it was this available guy with a kid, you know, and, but, uh, those are the old days. Uh, but you, we, we had to do that and if I had a, you

01:14:56.200 - 01:15:13.009

know, a, a, a, a better day than he did and something terrible happened and we couldn't get childcare, I stayed home. So I also tried to put important things, um. You know, important school conferences or important doctor appointment or important in my calendar just like, you

01:15:13.009 - 01:15:24.450

know, why should a kid be less important than a client and so, you know, it doesn't take the whole day and I've, and then, you know, associates come to me, male and female, you know, my, my son or daughter is in this play and you know

01:15:24.450 - 01:15:38.100

I said, well, put in your calendar and you know that's fine and you know there were times, you know, you have to then balance if some emergency comes up in a business situation, yeah, you might miss it, but the other parent should be there. And you

01:15:38.100 - 01:15:53.020

know, I wasn't the soccer mom. My husband was the squash and golf dad. Uh, he went to those things when my son played on the squash team or, and those aren't really spectator sports, but my husband used to do the taking and whatever, um, but because

01:15:53.020 - 01:16:07.520

he made more time for it and, you know, he eventually wound down his practice, um, when, uh, my son was in high school. Um, there's time and place for everything. I, I'm of the theory that your kids need you more when they're older. And I, I

01:16:07.520 - 01:16:26.350

actually have friends who worked when their kids were babies and quit. Uh, when they were in middle school. And every, every individual has a, a different relationship, a different need about family, whether it's children or parents, uh, dogs require care too, which is, you know, torture

01:16:26.350 - 01:16:39.229

to me that I don't have a new dog, uh, but that's because I decided I traveled too much and you know, these are all important pieces of your life that you have to, to think about and everything's a balance, whether it's a child or a parent

01:16:39.229 - 01:16:51.290

or a pet and. Uh, you know, I can't say it's perfect, um, but, you know, I'm, I'm, I, I love the time I've, I spent with my son when he was little. I, I now have to make an appointment to, to get a meal with him,

01:16:51.410 - 01:17:10.125

but I still enjoy that. In the time remained, let's talk a little bit about things other than work, um, getting involved in association. Getting involved with local things that feed your passion, being on a board of an arts art museum or um all of us do

01:17:10.125 - 01:17:28.569

that playing golf which also has has business advantages uh as well um you know in all the things we do. Is it good to put that stuff into, is, does it, does it, my theory is doing that enriches the rest. I'm on a board of a

01:17:28.930 - 01:17:44.120

art performing arts center on the board of a nursing school, uh, you know, doing all these other things. Uh, I know Barbara has ins the court, and, you know, all of you have, you know, whether you're a professor or whatever you're involved in, um. Talk about

01:17:44.120 - 01:17:53.919

those things and how they, how they help you as a person, how they maybe help you in business. Although I think, I think, you know, you get on boards and you think, oh good, I'll get business out of it. No, it's not why you're on a

01:17:53.919 - 01:18:05.689

board. No, you're on a board to contribute to the board and to share your knowledge and also to, to feed your passion and and for you to get something out of, but you're not out on it to get bus. I think that's what you have to

01:18:05.689 - 01:18:18.810

decide and we got into our career somebody said it earlier you gotta love what you do or get out of it um and you can tell from us we haven't balanced our lives well because we love what we do this is a great field you're solving

01:18:18.810 - 01:18:34.049

people's problems it's intellectually challenging um you get high on the excitement of it. But you do have to balance. You have to find something else. Don't just get on the board because, OK, I have to, you know, be on 3 boards or belong to 3 organizations

01:18:34.049 - 01:18:46.770

and go to their conferences. You're gonna hate it. Get out of that if you don't like it. Did you start the bankruptcy in a court in Delaware? In Delaware, yes, yeah, um, you know, because I love bankruptcy. We were going to ends of court, which is

01:18:46.770 - 01:19:04.899

a great program for mentoring people, but you know you had to sit through, you know, you know. Boring topics. Uh, well, there, there were a lot of battersy topics that are interesting, so I, I found that wonderful, uh, find an organization. I did a mentoring program

01:19:04.899 - 01:19:17.580

because my mother was very interested in education and there was a great program in Philadelphia you could mentor a student and I mentored a girl she didn't know a single person who had ever gone to college. She had no clue and she was in 9th grade

01:19:17.580 - 01:19:30.339

at the time, which was a great time to get them thinking about this, what you need to do. Um, it was just a great program because I was very interested in education. I learned a lot from her. She graduated from college and at the same time

01:19:30.339 - 01:19:44.790

her mother went back to college and got a degree as well. And now her two younger siblings are in the program too. Uh, find something you're interested in and do it. Maybe it's a book club, something sail out of your comfort zone, out of your comfort

01:19:44.790 - 01:19:58.740

zone, something you love doing that will take you away from work because we all have to decompress, uh, a wine group. I mean people say oh I can't be, but you know a wine group, some group where you can interact with people and decompress and if

01:19:58.740 - 01:20:12.560

you're gonna join an organization or be on a board, get involved, do it because it feeds your passion to come back to what Midge said. You know, don't do it because you think that it'll look good on your resume or you think that you may get

01:20:12.560 - 01:20:28.680

clients as a result of it. Do it because you're interested in, in their goals and then be involved. Don't just join. I mean, that, that's probably, and, and frankly, that's part of the reason why life still remains unbalanced for many of us is because we do

01:20:28.680 - 01:20:43.080

join organizations and we get involved in them. And as a result of that, then you've got your day job and then you have your afternoon and evening job and then you know you go home, uh, but, uh, I'm involved in a number of organizations, but with

01:20:43.080 - 01:21:03.330

respect to each of them, I'm just not a member. I'm, I'm, I'm an active involved person. um, I'm chairman of the board of a nonprofit in Dallas, uh, that is a legal hospice. We provide legal services to terminally ill, um. Patients, um, uh, either diagnosed with

01:21:03.330 - 01:21:19.100

a terminal illness or, uh, that suffer from HIV disease. I mean, it, it's an incredible need out there. Uh, it's a wonderful organization and I've been involved with it for a number of years. Um, so. And, and again, from a problem solving standpoint, The skill set

01:21:19.470 - 01:21:35.569

of all of you in this room going to the table of a nonprofit and being at that table contributing, you don't realize how much talent you have in problem solving that people need. Um, a lot of people don't think the way you have learned to think

01:21:35.569 - 01:21:49.850

about problems, and you really can contribute. And as I look back on that, I've done a lot of nonprofit work and as I look back on what I've done in my life, um, I, I think a lot of the things that we've built in that area

01:21:49.850 - 01:22:03.930

I find the most rewarding of, uh, you know, it's a lot of it's leaving legacies and improving people's lives in a way that, you know, as a judge I can only do so much, you know. Uh, but I think it's, it is rewarding. So, uh, uh,

01:22:04.089 - 01:22:15.990

two things. One is the board work, and I think for me it's a give something back time, and I agree with you on problem solving. I think that's, that's sort of for me that's a good way to describe our careers. It is a problem solving field,

01:22:16.040 - 01:22:28.939

and, uh, and I enjoy that. And so I've been on the board of In Motion, which is a, a charity that provides free legal services to women and children in New York City. Uh, and, uh, it's an amazing charity, not a plug for the charity, just

01:22:28.939 - 01:22:39.669

interesting model which is usually when you give a $1 to a charity, you know, 90 cents goes to charity or 80 cents or whatever. This is the only one where you give $1.07 dollars go because lawyers, many of which are in this room around the table,

01:22:39.770 - 01:22:53.419

donate their time. So it's an amazing leverage model. The other one is the Center for Discovery where my sister is an autism specialist and, and runs part of that. She's a, a PhD and. Uh, that's sort of doing for people who cannot do for themselves at

01:22:53.419 - 01:23:05.020

all in any way, shape or form, and so it's very interesting, but whatever it is, it's, it's a getting involved thing switching gears. The other thing that I find interesting is what else do you find time for in your life? I've, I do love golf. And

01:23:05.020 - 01:23:20.060

those of you that know me know that, and I've desperately tried to get all my friends to golf, even some at the table, um, with some limited success, some with a lot. I figured if I could get Louboutins with spikes she'd play, but anyway, um, so.

01:23:22.000 - 01:23:39.250

Hey, so, uh, I don't know, but anyway, uh, but you know golf is amazing because it's fun for family, um, it's, you know, we're a natural foursome with my two sons and husband, and there's no BlackBerries, no phones, no every other device that, uh, distracts you,

01:23:39.319 - 01:23:53.299

so it's a great family time in amazing places, and you can sort of call it exercise, not really, but you can, um, and, um, but it's also. To me it's the sport of golf and it has opened many, many, many doors, and you don't have to

01:23:53.299 - 01:24:06.220

be great at it. I've given many speeches, top 10 tips for golfing with the guys, for those who are a little like a little orations, it's a um, but it, it, it matters. So if you can just learn the rules, you only actually have to learn

01:24:06.220 - 01:24:18.750

to hit 4 clubs, one you already know because you all play miniature golf, so you can all putt, and the rest of it's not that hard. So, um, I would say it's not that hard. No, no, no, and you don't have to be great if you

01:24:18.750 - 01:24:33.770

ever watch the guys. 90% of them are horrible golfers. They can't horrible, and, and no shame whatsoever. So you know, like they never take a lesson and they don't wear good clothes. I mean one thing we can look good out there, OK, so I would say,

01:24:33.830 - 01:24:47.040

uh, if you, if you haven't taken it, try it, and then after you hate it, try it again because you might like it better the second time. But, um, that same client who walked into the firm April 7th, 1975. You know, fast forward and after my

01:24:47.040 - 01:25:06.560

child was born, uh, they took me out to play golf and I shot 144 my first day. Did better on the back nine. I didn't count the lost balls, but now I play all the time. All my friends play. It is our go to thing to

01:25:06.560 - 01:25:18.455

do together, friendship, and I think Marsha said we like getting together. Well, we have time to get together now more than ever, but it's, it's a skill and it's not. You pick up. I had a good friend actually the, the dean of this nursing school that

01:25:18.455 - 01:25:28.805

I serve on the board, and she, I said we're gonna play golf in the afternoon. She goes, Oh, I'll play with you. I said, AF, you don't play. She's from Egypt. She goes, Oh, well, I'll take a lesson in the morning and I'll play with you

01:25:28.805 - 01:25:43.720

in the afternoon. Now that's confidence. Well, on, on that note, does anybody else, because I thought maybe it would open up for questions, and I can comment a little on the organizations, you know, they're the professional organizations which we talked about earlier, which are, you know,

01:25:43.799 - 01:25:57.439

all very important, and, uh, the not for profits. I'm, I, I'm proud also. I serve on the in motion board, uh, with Norma, and, uh, it's a great provider of legal services to women and children in New York, and, uh, my firm does donate services and,

01:25:57.479 - 01:26:09.750

uh, uh, as well as, uh, writes a check and as do I, but. Uh, but it's, but it's, it's, you feel good about it. And, you know, for the very first time in my life as a lawyer, I actually went to visit the Center for Justice

01:26:09.750 - 01:26:25.609

in the Bronx, and it's, uh, connected to the Bronx DA's office, and I was so impressed. Um, I had a totally different vision, you know, I watched Law and Order and that's what, that was my. Of district attorney's office, um, but, uh, it's nothing like that,

01:26:25.750 - 01:26:36.990

and, uh, you know it's, it's just something that makes you feel good that you're part of. Lawyers, you know, obviously we have our pro bono obligations and one of the things that I like to do because I find I very rarely have time to, I, I

01:26:36.990 - 01:26:51.060

have supervised some cases to really do pro bono cases, but, uh, one thing I do do with some of my colleagues and it's a great opportunity for some of my younger. Uh, lawyers and actually the women love to do it is we educate legal aid lawyers

01:26:51.060 - 01:27:04.830

on, uh, restructuring small businesses. And uh so we do a program on that and they love it and it forces us to learn something about it. I actually was fortunate the day I was sitting in court waiting to be heard on something on General Growth in

01:27:04.830 - 01:27:19.580

front of Judge Gropper and he was dealing with a neighborhood restaurant owner uh and I didn't appreciate, you know, we talk about it very theoretically. I really got an appreciation and the timing was perfect. The lecture was that night and we actually invited a uh um.

01:27:20.359 - 01:27:31.439

Uh, uh, someone from Blackstone had indicated that they were interested in pro bono. So, why don't you come send, have, have one of your MDs come to this. I had to remind him a few times, these are little, little businesses with micro loans, but doing something

01:27:31.439 - 01:27:44.649

like that, you feel that you've applied your skill to, uh, to something that will have again a multiplier effect because it was a number of lawyers from firms and legal aid who are gonna be actually doing that stuff, so. Yeah, there are a lot of things

01:27:44.649 - 01:27:59.689

we can do, and I do, and I will credit Norma with, uh, being an encourager of my golf game. I, I played 4 rounds of golf recently in, uh, Mexico and I was feeling OK about it, um, but, um. I, I have other passions. Uh, I

01:27:59.689 - 01:28:13.970

collect Japanese antiques and I have a specialty in that area, uh, of, uh, if anybody wants to know offline about Japanese Nino, which are actually dolls, uh, but we don't call them that, um, but, uh, it's really, uh, sort of a little bit of a side

01:28:13.970 - 01:28:31.660

passion, and, um, you know, I think if you have something like that, um, and I share my husband's, uh, uh, uh, passion for art, he shares his passion. I don't share him. Uh, he used to represent a lot of, you know, art type of, you know,

01:28:31.819 - 01:28:45.700

clients, um, arty type of clients, and, uh, he chairs a contemporary art museum, uh, uh, in, in Connecticut, and so I'm the corporate wife because I love that stuff. And so you have to sort of split yourself. And you get some enjoyment and you put your

01:28:45.740 - 01:29:02.600

your business aside when you're doing that helps you think good good um we have a little time for questions. Should we do this informally or formally Sherry? Oh, Sherry has a a microphone if anybody wants to ask a question. Or not. Hey, good morning. My question

01:29:02.600 - 01:29:16.220

is earlier you spoke about being at the table. Um, in the practice I'm in, I am the junior person and my, my senior, uh, colleagues are all men, and so I am that person that's getting the coffee and making the coffee and shutting the door and

01:29:16.220 - 01:29:34.430

answering the phone. How do you get out of that role? What advice do you have? Have them hire a junior guy. You know, the advice I have, just don't do it. Just sit there. Sit there. And it's amazing what happens when you do that. It takes,

01:29:34.669 - 01:29:45.399

it takes some gumption, but just sit there. When the door needs closing, if you don't get up, eventually one of them will. Um-hum. Or just turn up or say, no, why don't you get the door? But you don't have to be that aggressive. You can just

01:29:45.399 - 01:29:58.410

be, you know, passive and let them do it. Figure it out. Um. So it's uh Interesting. I know it sounds easy, but that's, that is tough. And you know, but I'm going to be a heretic on this. If you're the most junior person in the room,

01:29:58.899 - 01:30:08.310

and I've given my son this advice, I said, don't scoff at any crap they make you do, right? You know, you're the, you're the low guy in the totem pole. But, but at some point in time, but at some point, yeah, that's why I said they

01:30:08.310 - 01:30:21.299

have to hire a junior guy. They have to hire somebody junior to her. Are you sure you're really totally the junior? Yeah. Or is there another guy who may be the same level as you who should be doing it? Um, I'm really, there are younger folks

01:30:21.299 - 01:30:31.660

in the office, but they're necessarily on the cases. Well, I I only three of us that do the bankruptcy work. OK. And I am the junior one. I think you have to show respect, but after, I don't know how long you've been with your firm, but

01:30:31.660 - 01:30:46.439

if you've been with your firm for a few years and you're still doing that kind of stuff just cause you're a junior, you don't need to be doing it. If you just got there, you need to be doing it. If you want to stay there Gee,

01:30:46.520 - 01:30:58.819

do we resolve? Oh come on, surely there are questions. I'm gonna, I'm gonna throw something out. One thing, um, you have to be really good at what you do too. One thing you can't do is sit back and just expect things to come to you. So

01:30:58.879 - 01:31:12.609

I would say, you know, get yourself educated, get yourself experiences, volunteer to do more if you really wanna learn it. Like be the person who is really willing to dig in, learn it. Become an expert if you're responsible for if you're a banker responsible for the

01:31:12.609 - 01:31:27.009

model, know the model inside and out, have read the 10K, you know, when you're putting the time and put it in in a quality way. If you don't know, ask questions, but more opportunities come to people when they are successful at it, so you can't just

01:31:27.009 - 01:31:40.830

expect something to come to you either as a gender matter or seniority matter or age, whatever it is, it won't. So you, you have to be somebody once said at a graduation I heard you have to be the CEO of Me Inc. And um and you

01:31:40.830 - 01:31:54.629

really do so you have to direct it don't expect a mentor to be assigned to you don't assume that if you have a mentor, the mentor will do everything it's you like that's a benefit that you're enjoying so whatever it is, get really good at what

01:31:54.629 - 01:32:07.950

you do. I think that one of the greatest things is not to be known as a woman. What I mean is just to be known as a success. Now, having said that, I always make sure that I'm in hot pink or something that will absolutely not

01:32:07.950 - 01:32:21.790

confuse me with one of the guys, but, um, but seriously, I, I, I would not wear, you know, the gray uniform and try to blend in. But I also wouldn't want to say oh I deserve this because of my gender you deserve something because you're good

01:32:21.790 - 01:32:33.149

at it and I think what you've heard is a passion that's come out from every one of us that we love it and so we worked really hard to get good at it and by that other opportunities really in my case it just came and I

01:32:33.149 - 01:32:46.160

think that's the case around doesn't mean you didn't look for them or raise your hand or volunteer but you got chosen or you got an opportunity because you already had success somewhere else. Um, I was very fortunate that way. Like, I've had very different jobs, but

01:32:46.160 - 01:32:58.109

it's because if you succeed one place that people say, Well, I'll take a risk on her because she did that well, and the same thing for guys, but I think for women you have to really focus on, uh, being the very best you can be at

01:32:58.109 - 01:33:14.790

something. Well, and, and I also think that sometimes what you need to do is be a little bold. Now you have to be careful about that, um, but for example, um, I was a 3rd year associate at my first firm. Um, and it became clear to

01:33:14.790 - 01:33:29.600

me that bankruptcy was gonna boom. I mean this is at a time when no big firm other than perhaps Wild Gottel had a bankruptcy section. I mean, you know, generally the people who dabbled in bankruptcy were litigators that, you know, would go down to bankruptcy court,

01:33:29.669 - 01:33:47.080

and that, that was what I was doing, uh, and I loved bankruptcy because I was actually getting litigation experience that I wasn't getting as a litigation associate in the firm and seriously, as a third year associate. Thinking that bankruptcy was gonna become a strategic tool for

01:33:47.080 - 01:34:04.120

big companies, I went to the senior partner of the firm who at that time the firm was managed essentially by a benevolent dictator who I've been lucky enough to get to know from an odd funny experience as a summer associate there and I mean this guy

01:34:04.120 - 01:34:23.890

was a corporate lawyer and and literally I mean he ran the firm. And you know, knocked on the door, went in, and, you know, yes, I said we should have a bankruptcy section in the firm. And you know, I caught him like saying we should do

01:34:23.890 - 01:34:39.299

mortgage foreclosures at the time, probably I mean I mean it was not what it is today, and he looked at me and said, and, and fortunately he took me seriously, wonderful man. He looked at me and he said. Now explain, tell, tell me a little more.

01:34:39.479 - 01:34:55.049

So I told him what I thought and he said, and, and would I assume that you thought you should head up the section. And I said, no, actually I think I'm a little young at this point someday probably, but not right now, and he said, well,

01:34:55.149 - 01:35:10.299

let me, let me think about it and I'll get back to you. And within a year we had a bankruptcy section at the firm. Uh, and I formally moved over as the first associate in the bankruptcy section. We hired a, uh, actually we hired a former

01:35:10.299 - 01:35:26.140

bankruptcy judge to head up the section, and, uh, the rest is sort of history, um, and of course looking back at that I think what was I thinking about, you know, I was this young peep squeak, um, who went and, and did this, and the firm

01:35:26.140 - 01:35:43.500

listened and. Here we are. I will follow up with that which is take advantage of opportunities they don't drop in your lap, but even a terrible negative can be an opportunity. My law firm collapsed when I was 42. I was out of a job and it

01:35:43.500 - 01:35:59.879

was like holy, what am I gonna do with my life, you know, and a lot of my partners, many left the profession. They, you know, went in-house or formed companies, um, but it really was life altering, um. But I'll have to say that if my firm

01:35:59.879 - 01:36:15.529

had not collapsed, I never would have uh applied for the job in Delaware. I like Barbara thought well maybe at the end of my career I might be interested in being a bankruptcy judge, but I never thought of leaving Philadelphia, um, so I took advantage of

01:36:15.529 - 01:36:28.450

that opportunity. I went out. I did everything I could. I first day I found out the firm was collapsing, I called every single person I knew. And told them many of my partners were like, oh, I can't let anybody know that the firm is gonna collapse.

01:36:28.529 - 01:36:43.930

Well, heck, I had to get a job, you know, and I had to network and I had to take, take advantage of opportunities and negative events and turn them to your advantage. I've always believed I'd rather be lucky than smart any day, and I still believe

01:36:43.930 - 01:36:56.600

that. Your firm failed to make your own luck, but you make a lot, not all, but you make a lot of your own luck, and you gotta remember that, um, because I've always felt that I was very, very lucky. But when you look at things, it's

01:36:56.600 - 01:37:10.259

sort of like what you did, you make your own luck in a lot of cases, so always remember that, um, I think that's important. I think we have a question? I want to pick up on a comment judgment that you made about firms making an investment

01:37:10.259 - 01:37:23.165

and a lot of women tend to leave maybe 50 or 6th year, and it's interesting because we talk about this a lot at our firm and how you retain women and we've talked about coming from the other side of you have to make women. And feel

01:37:23.165 - 01:37:37.805

that you're making an investment in them and maybe they don't feel it as much, you know, a lot of times the male associates get sexier cases, the more interesting deals, etc. I'm just interested in all of your views, um, from the organizations you've been in on

01:37:37.805 - 01:37:50.439

what you think is the issue and how to really retain. Women, because I think it's, it's an issue everywhere and everyone's talking about it, but I haven't heard a good answer. I haven't heard anything that informs me how we're going to do it. I guess the

01:37:50.439 - 01:38:05.839

question is why are the women leaving? And it's not just law firms, it's corporate America all over. Yeah, everything. Not in investment banks, of course. But, Because they have one mentors because we have no problem with it. Is it because it's, is it because it's tough,

01:38:05.970 - 01:38:19.209

uh, well, listen, there's lots of reasons we go through it, but what I'll say is I'll focus on the population that stays. So for the 90% or whatever it is in your firm, 50% that opt out, I'm not gonna address that because there's 8000 studies and

01:38:19.209 - 01:38:31.390

people that are qualified, but for the ones that stay. What I have found that is very helpful, like in my firm now I report up to a woman called Ina Drew who's our chief investment officer, sits on the on the uh investment committee of the or

01:38:31.390 - 01:38:47.290

on the operating committee of the firm which is, you know, the dozen or so most senior people, um, having very the women who stay for a very good insight, I think for senior management is making sure you're promoting the best and brightest so that. For those

01:38:47.290 - 01:39:01.200

that stay there are tremendously uh successful role models who are doing a very good, good, good job, and we have 3 of them on our operating committee which is a very high percentage. Uh, in, in corporate America to have at that level with very important jobs

01:39:01.200 - 01:39:14.680

in and of themselves out of JPMorgan they'd be easily in the top, I don't know, 20 or 30 companies in the certainly United States maybe the world they're very big areas of business that they control large P&Ls, so I would say that you have to be

01:39:14.680 - 01:39:30.069

thoughtful as a firm, as senior management within the firm to. Make sure that for those who want to stay for whatever you know that they're given opportunities and the very best and brightest uh are given a role model type um of jobs and that does help

01:39:30.069 - 01:39:48.029

it's very motivational do that. In corporate you're right and in corporate America non-financial type things I sit on 3 New York Stock Exchange boards and stock exchange company boards and uh. With the exception of one, I will tell you it is so dismal, it's unbelievable, um,

01:39:48.359 - 01:40:00.799

and I went to this, I was just at a board meeting and I went to in front of everybody, said to the CEO, said we're doing a massive merger. I was looking at the new work chart. I said, uh, excuse me, I don't see much diversity

01:40:00.799 - 01:40:18.069

here. I don't see Hispanics, uh, at least that I could tell. I see very few women and, and I don't see any in the top except for one places, and, and that's in heading environmental, um, and I said I'm sorry, I just find this unacceptable, and

01:40:18.069 - 01:40:30.930

the, you know, he's right. In this particular industry there virtually are no women. I've walked those plants. I've walked it's, it's a, it's a tough industry to find them and. The head of the nominating committee turned to me, he said, she's right, and we got to

01:40:30.930 - 01:40:43.620

change it. We, we have to decide to change it somehow. Now, is that gonna happen overnight? No, we're going to do it in the middle of a massive merger where we're tripling our size? No, but the point is somebody's got to get up and say it

01:40:43.620 - 01:40:57.580

too. But, but why are women leaving? Why are women opting out don't see 5s. They don't see the, the eventual rewards. They don't see the progression that they right. They, they, you know, there are so many factors. I think the, the first thing that you have

01:40:57.580 - 01:41:11.904

to do. As a firm relates to what Norma said, which is one, make sure that the same opportunities are there because for those who want to stay, they, they should feel that they're getting the same client opportunities, assignment opportunities, and that is corrigible. I mean you

01:41:11.904 - 01:41:27.950

can make sure that that's the case and then I think particularly in law firm, I, I, and it because it's harder for me to speak for, you know, the corporate model. You know, when I joined the firm, I was 23. The partner track was 7.5 years.

01:41:28.259 - 01:41:43.040

I had plenty of time to have my children. I was lucky, OK? And, and I, as I said, in, in, in the partners in my firm, we have, there's a different story for each one. Now you come out of law school, you're 25 if you went

01:41:43.330 - 01:41:59.810

right from college, and many, uh, uh, law students today work first, so you're at least 25. The partner track in a law firm is 9.5 years today. Well, you know, that presents the dilemma, and that's why I get so many questions about when I should, when

01:41:59.810 - 01:42:15.870

should I have my children? And then, you know, so then it's not about opportunity and am I getting on the pitch? Am I getting the client work? These are very personal decisions and as a law firm we, you know, you could, you could drive yourself crazy

01:42:15.870 - 01:42:32.850

thinking about how do you have part time options which we do. And many of them result in what Judge Rendell described, where the 80% or 75% person ends up working 110%. And sometimes you can make it work and sometimes it's hard. It's, it's a very individual

01:42:32.850 - 01:42:48.339

thing. Um, we have a concept, uh, now in the firm of a part-time partner, um, but it's very hard to evaluate who gets to that. And one of my partners worked part time for like 20 years and, you know, earned that status because she was functioning

01:42:48.339 - 01:43:03.529

as a partner and it's full time now, but. That's a very esoteric status. Are the firms doing enough to make it possible for, for people to, to want to stay while they have children? I mean, we stayed when we had children, and I think we were,

01:43:04.160 - 01:43:17.850

we, I think we felt we had to. Yeah, I think, I think it's a very different, we, we had to. I felt I had to, um, I wanted to, I wanted to come back to work. I didn't want to be a stay at home mom. Um,

01:43:18.189 - 01:43:34.870

but I, I, I, I think attitudes have changed. Um, I'm not saying positively or negatively. I think that, uh, women do believe that they have more options today, and, you know, I don't know that that's wrong. It's our responsibility and every woman who's gotten to a

01:43:34.870 - 01:43:50.560

certain stage to be able to look back and say how can I help somebody below me? There are lots more options and it may not be follow my career path because I didn't have children and I got married at 48. But what works for you, every

01:43:50.560 - 01:44:07.854

person's situation is different, and there should be flexibility both in law firms and in corporate America that really I think is our responsibility to find how to solve those problems for the people we are mentoring and. Make flexibility in these institutions part of what they do,

01:44:08.214 - 01:44:22.680

not the exception to the rule, but we want to retain you. How can we, how can we make it work for you? Well, and I, I'll pick up on Bettina's point, which is everyone who's senior. And and in a position of influence at their firm when

01:44:22.680 - 01:44:37.640

jobs come up should look at the slate and you should make sure you have a diverse slate so to choose from you have to provide the opportunity so I think the more women choose to be vocal about uh saying there must be consideration given it doesn't

01:44:37.640 - 01:44:50.154

mean that you're assigning it to this person you still have to earn it, but you have the opportunity should you choose to want. To try is what we can contribute um and you should contribute for those of you that are senior or think about doing that

01:44:50.154 - 01:45:01.354

or asking for it if you're junior to make sure the senior people are helping to make sure and it's not just a woman that has to do that by the way can't be has to be both genders have to make sure you have diverse slate unfortunately

01:45:01.354 - 01:45:13.759

there's laws and all that but then there's practice and it has to start at the top it has to be the mentality and if it's not. You may or may not be able to choose it. You may have to change, uh, candidly, because you can change

01:45:13.759 - 01:45:25.339

you can influence what you can influence and you've got to decide. But you know, I know I've stayed at my for my entire career in my twenty-ninth year because I've never felt that there wasn't something else I could do or it wouldn't be fair, but you've

01:45:25.339 - 01:45:39.884

got to figure that out for yourself, and that's what we can contribute and try to, I think. OK, one last question and then we'll, um, my question was, uh, going back to mentoring, um, being at the tail end of my career and getting beyond the point

01:45:39.884 - 01:45:56.365

of having wonderful mentors throughout my entire career and working in a very, very male dominated arena with, with real estate and specifically development dirt and, and contractors, um, and by the way treated very well along the way as a woman we have more women than men

01:45:56.365 - 01:46:16.310

in our department so we just divide and conquer. Oh, My, my, my role in my career has shifted dramatically in that over 30% of my job officially is denoted as consulting my co-workers and peers because of my expertise and my experience and I've lost my mentors

01:46:16.310 - 01:46:32.169

through numerous mergers and acquisitions and restructuring and it's every other week restructure, 4 bosses in one year, etc. And um I mentor a lot of people directly and that's part of my job and I enjoy a lot of fulfillment out of it, but I find the

01:46:32.169 - 01:46:47.410

lack of finding a mentor for myself and when I reached out to senior management and said, listen, whenever they say, you know, how Everything going, you know, have any comments? Well, I'm, I'm, I'm enjoying what you've given me to do. I think that's a good use

01:46:47.410 - 01:47:03.279

of my skill sets, but I really would love to have a mentor, and the response typically comes back, well, you're the mentor, you know, you, you have to do that now, it's your turn. So I have lots of friends, and, you know, that I, uh, that

01:47:03.279 - 01:47:14.720

do the same thing that you can talk to, but that's different than having a mentor. So. Maybe get a mentor outside of your company. Exactly. Yeah. If you're on a board or you're active in your community. Well, I work 60, 70 hour weeks, so it's kind

01:47:14.720 - 01:47:27.879

of hard to like find. You're not going to have time to be mentored. Well, that's because I'm spending a lot of time doing that, but I'm just curious if there's other, uh, you know, people on the panel who have overcome that, for the people, not the,

01:47:28.040 - 01:47:40.450

not the young people on the panel, obviously people who there are none of those. I, I, I, I have a friend who's my age, and she was told by another woman. That she wanted her to be her mentor and she goes, oh God, does that mean

01:47:40.450 - 01:47:53.009

I'm really old? So maybe these people are afraid that they're, you know, you're thinking they're they're really, you know, much older. I don't know I don't know. I, I think there's a couple of things I mean and and I think looking outside your firm and, and

01:47:53.009 - 01:48:12.549

I understand the time is a is a problem, um, but from, from my experience, if, if somebody is really your mentor. They're your mentor for life. Uh, I mean, Mickey Seinfeld, uh, I don't see nearly often enough, but there's still that relationship between us that when

01:48:12.549 - 01:48:29.910

I see him, it's like it was yesterday that I last saw him, um, the same with people that I considered mentors from my first law firm and then frankly, um, I started teaching at law school when, when I took the bench, um, and the, the last

01:48:29.910 - 01:48:46.479

class of the semester. Um, we don't do anything except I talk about being a lawyer. I mean, these are 2nd and 3rd year law students, and I talk about the importance of having a mentor and, and frankly, sometimes it's even better to have a mentor that's

01:48:46.479 - 01:49:03.450

not in your firm because frankly, there, there are times that what you need guidance on is something that's happening within the firm. Now, not certainly client confidential information. But it may well be that you know you don't think you're being treated quite like you should be

01:49:03.669 - 01:49:18.060

and it's hard to go to somebody in the firm and talk about that perhaps um so you know mentors are everywhere and and just look for them and. And frankly, the last thing I say to students is, you know, and if you can't find somebody else,

01:49:18.560 - 01:49:33.540

call me. Me, can I make one comment? One last comment. You've got the floor. The most important thing I ever did when I was having some difficulty with a new job and I had no mentor really was go out and hire an industrial shrink. And he

01:49:33.540 - 01:49:47.259

became my coach and got me through all of the issues because he knew the business, I mean, not our business, but he knew business and um it was one of the most important thing I've ever done. OK, thank you, thank you.