00:00:02.900 - 00:00:16.930

I have some specific questions that I had crafted just to help me, um, but again we can talk about anything and it's sort of like a conversation. Um, I was curious as to where you and your wife were born. Were you born here or are you

00:00:16.930 - 00:00:42.389

immigrants? No, we, we were both born in the states here. I was born in Philadelphia. She was born in Troy, New York, New York, yeah. And how about your parents? My parents both came from overseas. OK, where uh. Russia, Poland, that area there there. And your

00:00:42.490 - 00:01:08.269

wife's parents, were they immigrants as well, or? Yes, yes, uh. I think her father came originally from Germany, OK. And uh Her mother, I think, also came from someplace in the Baltics, possibly Russia also, yeah. Um, can you describe to me what your educational background is?

00:01:08.639 - 00:01:31.440

Yes. I made it through high school. That's yeah, that's great. I know that you take classes now, which is partly the reason I'm ordering a couple of classes. 2 mornings a week I order the class. OK, um. Have you always lived in Pennsylvania? I have, yes,

00:01:31.569 - 00:01:51.419

OK. And um, I know that Professor Lerner has at least one sibling, Ben, um, two siblings. OK. Who, uh, is the other person? Well, they, they were known as the ABC boys, Alan Ben, who was his older brother, and Carl, who was his younger brother. OK,

00:01:52.660 - 00:02:09.100

what are their occupations? Well, I, I'll tell you, but as long as you, you don't say anything to Alan about this, I've always said that I've had 3 sons. One's a judge, he's a common police judge at Senn. One's a professor, and the other one really

00:02:09.100 - 00:02:32.619

works for a living. And what does Carl do? Carl works for Walmart Corporation over in Jersey. Um, did you stress academics to the kids when they were growing up? Did you go out and say, you know, you, you need to get an education. That's the most

00:02:32.619 - 00:03:00.550

I'm a firm believer in that. An educated person is a powerful person. Um, and did you think that Alan was a good student? Generally Alan was a very persevering student. I, I think that if it weren't. For his trying to emulate his older brother who was

00:03:00.550 - 00:03:20.270

a brilliant student, you know, one of these you don't have to crack a book and you do it's OK. Allan worked very, very hard to keep up. Uh, I don't know if you're familiar with it like, but they're very, very close. Uh, not only in a

00:03:20.270 - 00:03:41.039

social sense, but actually in age, there's less than a year of separating them and uh. Uh, you know, when you get me talking, you, you've got to stop me because I, I will run on and on and on about things that may have no relevancy to

00:03:41.250 - 00:03:59.610

to what you have here. Oh, it doesn't matter. It's a fishing expedition I'm looking to learn from you. Uh They, they both went to the same high school. Ben got all perfect marks. Alan got by, but he worked. He had to work very, very hard and

00:03:59.610 - 00:04:23.000

uh. When they, when Ben decided, Ben, uh, did his undergraduate work, he spent a year at at at Penn here under a merit scholarship, uh. After the first year, he, he came to me and asked if he could transfer out. And I thought he was out

00:04:23.000 - 00:04:42.450

of his mind, especially when he told me that where he wanted to go would not give him a scholarship unless he earned it the 2nd year, but He said he wanted, he wanted to field. Challenged more OK uh. And he wanted to go to Brandeis's. Uh,

00:04:42.750 - 00:05:10.760

so we let him go to pray and die. Uh, Alan, of course, was here at Wharton and Uh When Ben uh uh graduated. He, he really had this choice, I'm very proud to say of any, any law school that he wanted to go. Alan During his

00:05:10.760 - 00:05:38.859

undergraduate years, he's a year behind. Went to school 52 weeks a year. And caught up And they both graduated simultaneously to law school. Oh wow, OK, very, very, uh. Dramatic and traumatic part of my life to attend their graduation together. So he caught up to his

00:05:38.859 - 00:06:01.489

brother and they both graduated law school here. OK, that's 1965, was it? OK. That I did not know because I knew that Ben was a judge and him quite a bit the answer your original question was the kind of student he was. He, he just really

00:06:01.489 - 00:06:23.179

worked his tail off. He really worked and uh to be able to catch up so they could graduate together, um. Were you surprised that both Alan and Ben became lawyers? Or or even chose to go to law school. I don't know that I was surprised. Uh

00:06:24.369 - 00:06:42.790

I, I knew that, uh, Back in the high school days that Ben, you know, whatever he wanted to do academically, he could do. Uh, I don't know whether Alan was going to be a professional baseball player or uh play in a band and play the drums

00:06:42.790 - 00:07:04.880

or something. You never knew without. You just didn't know. And uh But you know, maybe he went into law because that's what Ben did. I, I don't know. I don't know, uh. Let me dig this just for a moment because uh I don't know whether you're

00:07:04.880 - 00:07:33.190

aware of this. Does the name Tony Amsterdam mean anything to you? No, it does not. Tony Amsterdam. His father was uh. One of the movers and shakers. Uh, politically and financially in the city of Philadelphia. OK, I was a law professor at Penn here, OK. In

00:07:33.190 - 00:08:05.540

my opinion, Any liberal characteristics. Uh, my two sons have those two. And I have a few Came from Tony Amsterdam, OK. I think that he was a If ever there was a role model, he, he, he was theirs. I thought he later went over, uh, transferred

00:08:05.540 - 00:08:22.649

from here and went out to Sanford, taught there, and I think now he's over at Columbia teaching if he's still teaching at all, but. It it it it's a name that was very important. I, I, I don't think that Alan would have gone to Mississippi. If

00:08:22.649 - 00:08:42.429

it weren't for Amsterdam, OK, just in passing, just thought you might want to know. Yeah, great, thank you. Um, you mentioned that Alan liked to play drums and in baseball when he was a youngster. Are there other hobbies or interests that he had growing up? Well,

00:08:43.789 - 00:09:09.520

Baseball was really the love of their life and, and, uh. There was a neatness about this uh baseball thing. Uh, when they were growing up, and I'm talking about the days of the prior high school. Uh Because of the work that I was doing at the

00:09:09.520 - 00:09:33.049

time. I had the time, certainly the inclination. To spend a lot of time with the boys. In the afternoon, OK. And we lived in a row house neighborhood and there were a lot of other youngsters their age, and I would always see if they got a

00:09:33.049 - 00:09:51.099

baseball game together or I took the kids out to the ball games or something like that and their love of baseball still exists today very, very much so. I, I think that was the prime thing but uh. There wasn't anything that Alan wouldn't try, didn't make

00:09:51.099 - 00:10:23.400

any difference. Was he, um, do you like dancing at that time? I know he takes dancing lessons now, um. Anything He uh He, he, he had the ability that when people met him for the first time, there was a closeness, an openness to him. What you

00:10:23.400 - 00:10:45.020

saw is what you got. There's nothing held back or anything, you know, and uh. So he had no trouble getting along with anybody anywhere anytime. His older brother. A little cold or, uh, you know, office and uh. I would say the call is in between the

00:10:45.020 - 00:11:19.859

two of them, yeah. But uh He gets along with people. He is considerate about this. He listens As well as talks, but he listens. Sound like a father, don't I? Yeah. What else can I say Ask me questions there, OK, um. You said that Ellen went

00:11:19.859 - 00:11:41.700

to Mississippi. Um, tell me more about that. Well, He, he, he was going to school, you know, and. And then one day he comes home and he tells his mother and myself that uh. He would like to go to Mississippi. He was asked to go and

00:11:41.700 - 00:12:00.140

uh and what's the purpose? Why are you going to Mississippi? He said, well. There are a lot of unregistered voters down there and they don't have the opportunity, uh, the law does not favor them anything and uh a few months ago when other school, uh. Uh

00:12:01.969 - 00:12:25.929

The colleagues of his in school here were going, and he would like to go. His mother and I Didn't realize what was involved in going. I don't know if he did, but we certainly didn't, and he said, sure, you know, broaden your education, you want to

00:12:25.929 - 00:12:48.599

go to help somebody go. It wasn't until later, of course, that we found out. What he was into. Which was Which was, well, the killing of the three young men down there and He spoke very little about it when he came back home, but. I got

00:12:48.599 - 00:13:15.210

once got him to open up. And he would tell me He was living at the time. With a black family. And That when he was going from wherever they went to get these people registered going home, he would be followed. By uh The police or others,

00:13:15.530 - 00:13:35.020

and he had to devise ways and means of losing them so they shouldn't know where he was living because he didn't want anything at all about them. And uh It's a good thing I didn't know about it before you came back. Yeah, yeah. How long was

00:13:35.020 - 00:13:54.599

he in Mississippi? Uh, oh, I guess it was a complete summer. OK. And I was on a summer break or something that's what they were down there. And Ben didn't go without. Now what did Ben do that day, that year that that was, I think the

00:13:54.599 - 00:14:21.859

year before they graduated and uh. I don't, I don't remember just what Ben was doing at that time, OK. Um, did you think that after Mississippi Ellen would be involved in more civil rights stuff when I realized what was involved. And Soon after that. Excuse me.

00:14:23.049 - 00:14:46.010

He became involved with this uh. In New York, law students for What was the name of the organization? There's an organization, Law Students for Civil Rights or something, and he went there as a. I don't remember whether he was the head of it or or something,

00:14:46.049 - 00:15:16.000

but he was very, very active in it over there and he spent uh. I think a year there doing that. After he graduated, yeah, it became pretty evident, uh, what his leanings were. I Then when he came back, he served his uh. He clerked for uh.

00:15:16.890 - 00:15:56.049

Federal judge, uh, who's at Yale now, I think. Or, yeah, yeah, yeah. Who incidentally. Uh Married Alan in Adelaide. OK. Uh, uh, in his chambers, the, the services were performed in his chambers. So I got to know him Uh Ben, uh. When he graduated We went

00:15:56.099 - 00:16:29.090

out to the 9th District of California. And uh clerk for a federal judge there, OK. And uh he came back and uh After his clerkship. He went to work for a law firm, but. That phase of of lowering if you can call it, uh. It's not

00:16:29.090 - 00:16:56.979

Ben's cup of tea, uh, you know. As you will find out if you go into it. Uh, like a lot of other things. You've got to produce How many hours did you write this week, you know, that thing. That's not Alan Urbans. Allan had no problem

00:16:56.979 - 00:17:20.079

without going out. Business came his way, especially in his field and uh Ben was more of an administrator and so when the opportunity arose, That he was offered the job of chief public defender for the city of Philadelphia, he grabbed it. I did well. Uh Won

00:17:20.079 - 00:17:41.819

many awards. Was known as the best defender's office in the country. But it was his cup of tea. He administrated the office, and they did well. He really raised the standards there and everything else, and that was his way of doing things. And when he left

00:17:41.819 - 00:17:59.250

there because he had to earn a living, they don't earn a living doing that. Uh, it was a sad day because when he went into the real world. And found out that You know, you've got to go, you got to get business. He was never very

00:17:59.250 - 00:18:30.349

happy at it. He was a good lawyer, but that's why he's getting this judgeship is so very, very important to him. Uh, I would say that If I have any Liberal Characteristics. Oh In any way whatsoever. I got them for my children. It didn't work the

00:18:30.349 - 00:18:59.890

other way. No, it's a bit about the son's learning. For my children and my wife. OK. Uh I make no bones about it that that really in the in the the way I grew up and everything else, uh. The only thing Thought was at that time,

00:18:59.939 - 00:19:19.819

make a living, you know, I'm talking about the 30s, the big crash and everything else and uh you know, I never gave much thought to his rights to his very liberal vote or something. But the kids taught me. And I hope I learned well. Uh And

00:19:19.819 - 00:19:39.020

I say that very, very proudly because everybody says, oh, the kids take care of the father. Not so, not so. I was a very stern parent. Doctor Spock in his early days would not have been happy with me. I mentioned Doctor Spock because of my last

00:19:39.020 - 00:20:05.020

class. Uh, the class had to do with. Classical literature that affected. The culture of America, uh, and among the many of the books we have, we had, uh, Dale Carnegie's. In how to win friends and influence people. Dr. Spock and Uncle Tom's cabin and and stuff

00:20:05.020 - 00:20:25.079

like that and that's why I said Doctor Spock in his early days later he relented a little about his early days he would not have been happy with me. Yeah, I, I, I was stripped. The kids knew that when they came home. Fun and games were

00:20:25.079 - 00:20:46.510

fine. I wanna see the homework. And I want to know that it was done. If you need any help, I'll try to help you with it because that's it. Uh, pretty much so. I'm pretty rigid, I guess I was. I don't know, it turned out so

00:20:46.510 - 00:21:07.569

bad, but uh. I Um, I, I know that you said that you, you know, you were born here and, and you grew up here, but um the, you know, I, I'm assuming you were around in the 20s or born around then or 1913, 1913. 0, that

00:21:07.569 - 00:21:27.989

was the year my paternal grandfather was born as well. That's interesting. Um, in India, um, but, um, is he still alive? No, he passed away in '91. Um, I actually grew up with my paternal grandparents were extended family, so, um, but, um, moving to you, um,

00:21:28.140 - 00:21:50.380

I. So I was around 100, OK, um, so what do you remember as far as um changes around the 20s and and the 30s, um, and then. I guess the political and the social changes in the 60s and the 70s. Well. Of course I went to

00:21:51.530 - 00:22:20.739

I was 4 years of age when the first World War broke out. Uh I have vivid memories of, you may not even know. The great influenza plague that occurred in 1918. OK. I think I vaguely. Uh I distinctly remember them uh. Carting people to the cemetery,

00:22:20.819 - 00:22:42.050

they didn't have enough hearses. They just used cars and wagons and everything, and people were just dying like flies. I, I remember that part of it. Uh, we lived for a short time. Uh A little uh county we live in Delaware County in in Pennsylvania, a

00:22:42.050 - 00:23:18.630

little town called Morton, Pennsylvania. My mother and father opened up a store there and uh. Oh, we lived there I went to school, a one-room schoolhouse. I was never a great student. Mhm. I managed to pass. Uh I guess it was good enough Certain subjects I

00:23:18.630 - 00:23:50.569

like certain, I, I didn't like that then we came back in the twenties. Well, In the twenties I was 7 years old then we came back and I attended. The grammar school here in the city. OK. Uh At that time, of course, you know, there was

00:23:50.569 - 00:24:16.760

uh no various classes my teacher taught. That that was your teacher that you were gonna have and uh I plodded along pretty much. Um I worked I worked at a at a very early age, uh. Uh Well, especially, uh, in about the 25s or something when

00:24:16.760 - 00:24:31.729

I was 1213, you know, I knew if I wanted anything that I had to go out and earn it or something, and, and I did. I'm. I was fortunate enough that I didn't have too much trouble finding odd jobs or something like that, and of course

00:24:31.729 - 00:24:59.390

uh. Later on, it was uh uh. You know, you, there's always a newspaperro you serve newspapers or something like that, so I went through that thing. Uh Now that I serve the afternoon papers. I used to serve The morning papers. Get up. Pretty early, got the

00:24:59.390 - 00:25:24.290

papers, go back, go to school and everything. I, I worked hard like I did, I, I not only worked long and hard. Uh, physical work I did, uh. I got involved in the uh in the 30s in the uh the food and produce business. I used

00:25:24.290 - 00:25:47.750

to work work weekends, long hours and It it was backbreaking work because the way stuff was shipped at that time in the containers, whereas now maybe a crate of oranges may come in something like this big, you know, maybe weigh 50 pounds or something at that

00:25:47.750 - 00:26:02.449

time they came in something that weighed at least 100 pounds and the potatoes were packed in 100 pound sacks and. Everything was stored in the cellar and the store was upstairs, so if you needed potato, you went down. And you know, and as I said, this

00:26:02.449 - 00:26:25.969

is a pretty early age for me, so. Work ethics I knew, uh. Coin phrase that I knew the value of a dollar was or how tough it was. And To a certain extent. I impose it upon the children. But only in the respect that. If they

00:26:25.969 - 00:26:52.780

wanted something. They were gonna have to work. Right Uh If they wanted something. That just working wasn't gonna do it for them. Uh I remember when they were old enough to drive. Uh, and they, they wanted a car. Well, the first requisite was, of course, that.

00:26:54.089 - 00:27:10.290

Let me see report cards. The first requisite, you know, you, you got it. The second requisite, if you get a car, who puts the gas in it, who does it and everything else, don't come to me, you gotta work. And that that that's the way it

00:27:10.290 - 00:27:33.000

was. Did Ellen have jobs I could find a job. He, he became a lifeguard. He became this, he became that, anything at all. Anything at all. He was, he Alan and Ben, I think were a lot like myself. And my brother, OK. I had no trouble

00:27:33.000 - 00:27:52.239

finding a job. And the idea of working, you know, to me it was normal. I mean this was the thing that you had to do. Uh, with Ben. I'll never forget when you got the car and and I told Ben that, you know, unless he uh.

00:27:53.869 - 00:28:04.290

paid his share of uh The gas or whatever it took to get there when he wasn't going to have a car and he went out and got a job and that was the worst thing he ever did in his life. He was a very, very unhappy

00:28:04.290 - 00:28:31.790

young man, very, very unhappy. But he did it, he did it, that's that's the important thing. Uh The 30s, of course. Mhm. With a crash. A financial crash. I graduated high school in 31. OK. So it's right in the middle of it. Uh College was out

00:28:31.790 - 00:28:45.619

of the question. I don't know that I would have qualified, to be honest, I don't know if I would have qualified, but there might have been some college that might have taken me or something. Uh, I had a pretty good C average, I think, uh, but.

00:28:47.290 - 00:29:10.699

Fortunately My other 3 siblings, my 2 sisters and my brother, OK. They did got their college in before the crash. OK, I think so. I, I never went to college, so you were the youngest child. You were the youngest, yes, yes. Uh It didn't bother me

00:29:10.699 - 00:29:34.630

too much. I got a job. When I got out of school again, in spite of the uh everything else, I got a job, food and produce. And uh I just worked. I made a couple of stabs one time I went out to Fort Wayne, Indiana. I

00:29:34.630 - 00:29:56.050

thought I Get interested in uh technical, become an engineering school. There was some school out there that. Uh Was run by some individuals, I don't know anything but. And uh So I signed up and I went out to Fort Wayne and I spent a year there,

00:29:56.099 - 00:30:37.219

and that was enough. And this was about 1930. I guess 3 6 or 37. OK. I'm 37. I met my wife And uh I met my wife in 37 and then I went out to Fort Wayne, OK. And I came back and We decided Uh, we

00:30:37.219 - 00:31:10.280

get married. And at the time I was not working, OK. But we got married anyway in 38. And uh But soon after. I got a job and And work and of course. In the early 40s, are we up to the 40s yet? OK. In the early

00:31:10.280 - 00:31:27.199

40s, uh. The war was coming. There's no question about it. I was working for this food and produce. Uh it was the same company I started with in 31 when I got out of high school and I'd worked for them for 3 or 4 years, leave

00:31:27.199 - 00:32:02.989

and do something else, come back and that, that sort of thing. So I was back with them again. Uh And uh And 41, Ben was born, OK. Ben was born February. 1941. January. Alan was born January of 1942. January 24th. It's got a birthday coming up.

00:32:03.790 - 00:32:34.099

January 24th. He, he was born. Uh I came He, he was born then, yeah, I, and I was working at that time. Uh I thought, well, I, I better start doing something or uh I'm gonna be over there carrying a gun and. I'm not a gun

00:32:34.099 - 00:33:02.109

carrier, so, uh. I went down to uh. Westinghouse And Leicester, Pennsylvania, it's southwest of the city here. It's a little town there near Derby. And I went into the war industry. And I worked there So the war was over. Most of my shift was midnight to

00:33:02.109 - 00:33:23.770

8 in the morning, 7 days a week. You never knew what time it was day or anything like that. And uh the war was over. Of course they didn't need me or anything. It was a question of going out and working again. And uh of course

00:33:23.770 - 00:33:46.420

the kids, you know, they were youngsters, the wife was. She had the 2 and then call came about 3 years later. So she had her hands full. And uh I left Westinghouse. And I didn't think I could have gone back to that fruit and produce business

00:33:46.420 - 00:34:13.169

again. I, I, I, I just thought, hey, let me try something else or something. So I went around and finally decided. Maybe I got to get a job selling insurance. OK. I I was a very, very shy person. And I, uh. Uh, you know, I wouldn't,

00:34:13.250 - 00:34:29.449

wouldn't go up to someone and talk to, not like Alan Allen could go and mix with anybody anyway, but I was pretty shy. I got over it. Uh And I went and I became, I applied and They sent me to New York. Uh, they do that,

00:34:29.459 - 00:34:44.000

the schooling and stuff like that, and we came back. I became an insurance man, OK. But this is an interview isn't about me, dear, and all I'm doing is talking about me. Oh no, I'd be curious to know because it involves I'm going to talk to,

00:34:44.250 - 00:35:10.189

I'm going to ask him questions about growing up and you know there'll be questions about his siblings and his parents. I work in the insurance business. Well 7 years, I guess. And you weren't a door to door salesman, were you, or they had what they called

00:35:10.189 - 00:35:35.729

what was known then as a debit. OK. All the major ones. I worked for Metropolitan Life who was the. Premier insurance company in America. OK. And debit means you had a book, you had a route. You went around collecting Literally, not figuratively, nickels and dimes from

00:35:35.729 - 00:35:50.409

the people who bought insurance. $1000 insurance but they played it out 25 cents a week or something like that and you had a regular route that you went around collecting and at night. If you wanted to sell, you had to wait till a husband came home.

00:35:51.219 - 00:36:15.979

You know, to sell some insurance if the new baby was born or something like that and so I was doing that, uh. I guess I was moderately successful at it. Uh, enough so that after the first year. When they uh an opening occurred, I was elevated

00:36:15.979 - 00:36:36.969

to a new debit. The debit, a debit was like an area. This was your area, and mine was at that time in the Kensington area where uh mostly uh. Blue collar workers or stuff like that, so you were limited in the amount of insurance that you

00:36:36.969 - 00:36:52.129

could sell if you sold a $1000 policy, you know, but of course, relatively speaking, you know, at that time $1000 was not $1000 today or something like that, but that's what it was. But when an opening occurred in another neighborhood, it happened to be the neighborhood

00:36:52.129 - 00:37:13.729

I lived in, I was elevated to that, so. I guess I was considered a pretty good insurance man. Uh, I, I sold the prescribed amount. I got the metal and all that sort of stuff that went with it. Uh, but in spite of that, there were

00:37:13.729 - 00:37:41.729

3 young mouths to feed and other things, and I had to supplement my income. A very dear friend of mine. He told me about a place that he was going on weekends, a farmer's market. Now when I say farmers' market, you may think of farmers' market,

00:37:42.050 - 00:37:58.729

you know, where the Amish people come in. What's your idea of farmers' market? My idea, yeah, I mean, truth be told, I don't grocery shop. I eat out, but I, when I think of a farmer's market, I just think of all the vegetables and the fruits

00:37:58.729 - 00:38:17.919

being there and you go buy them. I see that that's kind of farmers' market that I'm speaking of all that. But they had everything else that a department store would have clothing, shoes, hardware, auctioneers, stuff, all, all that kind, and they were open anytime anyway from

00:38:17.919 - 00:38:35.469

1 day a week to 2 days a week or 3 days a week, and people went up there, brought wares up there, rented a table, and, and, and sold the wares. So he told me about that, so you know, I thought he, you know, let me

00:38:35.469 - 00:38:53.270

try. So another guy in my office, in the office, the insurance business we said well. You know, We'd like, we'd like to do that, but what, what are we gonna sell? And if we find out what are we gonna sell, where are we gonna sell or

00:38:53.270 - 00:39:14.310

where are we gonna get the money to buy it to sell it, you know. Let me preface my remarks by saying that anything that I've been able to achieve in my lifetime. Has become been because somebody gave me a push up and helped me. I took

00:39:14.310 - 00:39:33.429

advantage of it. I didn't make any of them sorry that they did it, but without their help, I don't know where I would have been today. OK. So we understand that that this is not a uh you know uh. Rags the mids or you know that

00:39:33.429 - 00:39:53.209

I, I just pulled myself up on the boost. Sure I did, but it was a little push. It was some member of. Esther, it was an uncle of Esther, my wife's uncle, who happened to be in the jobbing business. He's selling hosiery and everything else. Oh.

00:39:55.850 - 00:40:11.850

Went down to see him. Well, first of all, yeah, I went down to see him and uh. I didn't realize what was involved in getting if I'm getting off the track, you tell me how late OK. Uh, I didn't know what was involved. You got I

00:40:11.850 - 00:40:28.860

thought all you did is you went up to the market and you went in there and said, I want a table, you know, and that was it. So I went up to him and he had a hosiery and this was at the time. When Hosiery was

00:40:28.860 - 00:40:53.709

pretty scarce nylons, that's, you know, that that sort of thing and uh. And everything and and. And in the haste to produce because of the war, the machineries in a lot of industries, just not hosiery. Were not perfected to the extent that everything they turned out

00:40:53.709 - 00:41:10.860

were perfect, so they had what we called IRs, irregulars or seconds or that kind of thing. But that's what was being sold up at these markets, you know, these farmers came in off the field and a stocking and stocking if it had a little run or

00:41:10.860 - 00:41:26.209

a little sowing and so what, you know. But anyway, I went to him. And I told him what the problem was, so he said, well, what's your problem? I said, I don't have anything to sell. So he waved at the counter, he says, you see what's

00:41:26.209 - 00:41:40.199

up here? What do you mean you don't have any cell. Whatever you need. So I said, Sam, I don't have any money. He said, I ask you for any money? You take it. If you buy it, you'll pay me. If you don't, you'll bring it back.

00:41:42.520 - 00:42:03.510

Give me my start. Went up to Quakertown. They were open only one day a weekend on Saturdays. And I walked in very proudly, you know, here I am, God's gift to the to the farmers' markets. And I spoke to The woman that was in charge, she

00:42:03.510 - 00:42:19.570

and her husband owned the place, and this was a huge place. This was at that time was about 50,000 square feet all under one roof. And I went up and, you know, I said, uh. I'd like a table. And she looked at me and she said,

00:42:19.649 - 00:42:38.459

you and a lot of other people would too. She said we don't have any tables available. It was one of the most successful markets around. We don't have any tables. You know, here I'm up here with merchandise and. I said, what do you mean? And then

00:42:38.459 - 00:42:56.620

the place was jammed the place. She says people have been waiting for months, a year to get in here, they, they, we just don't have it. Well, I just dreaded the idea of going back home, so I said, well, I know, but can they offer them

00:42:56.620 - 00:43:15.229

the values that I can't look what I've got I got I. And I spoke and I got a big mouth and I spoke and uh. After a while, I guess because she was tired of listening to me, so I'll tell you something. One of my dealers

00:43:15.229 - 00:43:33.300

called in sick today. I'll let you use this table, but that's it. Fine, the table was about half the size of this table or something, and I laid my wares out and everything else and had no problems selling them, and of course I never left the

00:43:33.300 - 00:44:00.800

market. These cars back there. So, uh, Shortly afterwards. They sold the market to other people. Uh, it was, uh, two gentlemen who were in the real estate business, and one of them, one of them lived in New York and lived in Philadelphia, and the one in

00:44:00.800 - 00:44:18.860

Philadelphia had a son who had just either graduated or got thrown out of college or something that we had to find something for him to do. They're pretty well to do people. Uh, they took it over. And enlarge the place eventually today the market's about a

00:44:18.860 - 00:44:39.550

little over 100 and some 000 square feet on the roof and everything else. It's one of the better known markets in the east here, the Quakertown Farmers' market. OK. And uh A young kid, he was 23 years old at that time, who took over. was the

00:44:39.550 - 00:45:05.020

most arrogant impossible. Ah Just just impossible. Nobody could get along with him. And he took it over and he treated us like dirt. Oh my God, he'd walk along the counter, see something, he says, What is this? So we, we hated him without time, but we

00:45:05.020 - 00:45:22.850

were all making a living there and I was supplementing it because I was still in the insurance business. I, I know I'm carrying on. I'm afraid I'm taking time. Tell me you think I'm not. No, that's fine. I have time, as long as you have time.

00:45:23.219 - 00:45:42.909

Fine. Wednesday, when you, when you changed to Wednesday you made perfect. Thursday would have been a problem. So I, I get up there and I so of course you get to be friendly with the other dealers and uh. We used to uh Engage it. The market

00:45:42.909 - 00:46:01.199

was open Saturday. Uh, only Saturday at that time, one day, but you could do enough to earn not a full day living, but you could earn, but what happened was that most of the dealers that were there, they would go to Quakertown on Saturday. They'd go

00:46:01.199 - 00:46:15.840

to E on Friday, they'd go to Cowtown on Tuesday. They'd go to Englishtown on Wednesday. They made a living just going one day a week, and they made a very good living. They worked hard, they made a living. So got pretty friendly with God, I guess

00:46:15.840 - 00:46:35.449

there was a group of 56 of us and uh we decided we all like to play cards. So, uh, In the market they had a room set aside for the dealers if they wanted to go down and eat their lunch or something there or just relax

00:46:35.449 - 00:46:55.330

so that to something. Most of us had someone helping us in the stand, some of the local, uh, men or women or young kids or something that would help us in the stand, and, uh. On a Saturday, uh. Early afternoon we would uh turn the department

00:46:55.330 - 00:47:20.830

over to the young girls. I'll be away for a little while, take care of things, and leave it down in this room. We locked the door and we play cards all afternoon. Unfortunately, one day we forgot to lock the door. Ah. And the uncle walked in

00:47:21.310 - 00:47:38.860

and saw us there. And he let us have it. He said, Is this all you've got to do everything like that? Made us go back to our departments. Well, we knew that the next thing that was going to happen, he was going to tell this young

00:47:38.860 - 00:47:59.600

nephew of his what was happening, and we knew that we were were through. Now, it's true I had the insurance business to fall back on the others, this is the way they made their living. And You know, it was a, it was a very, very uh

00:48:00.250 - 00:48:20.560

traumatic thing for us, uh, especially for them, and we, we just, we knew it was going to happen and uh. Certainly it did happen. Because soon afterwards. No Rebecca Stan, we got a over the loudspeaker. With so and so and so and so please come down

00:48:20.560 - 00:48:39.510

to the office. We knew this was it, you know, so we came down and the young kid was there this. Youngster 23 year old kid there. And he led into us. it into us to the point where I thought already you're you're right. Tell us already,

00:48:39.520 - 00:48:54.699

you know, let's get out of here. And he says, above all, you know, you're a businessman. The one thing that grabs me the most, you didn't ask me to play with you. Although we never played in that room again, we used to play in his office

00:48:54.699 - 00:49:14.929

there. They later decided to open in conjunction with other people, another market in Bristol, Pennsylvania, and he said to us, the card players. This is the layout of the market. You choose any spot you want in the market. It's yours. And some of us went over

00:49:14.929 - 00:49:43.139

there. So now I'm selling insurance. I'm selling insurance. I'm selling socks over here and I'm selling socks over here. OK. And we're going along pretty good for a while. Then one by day. He comes to me, he's got a problem. What's the problem, he says his

00:49:43.139 - 00:49:58.899

partner who owned the markets in Gilbertsville, a similar type of market, they had to take care of their market on Saturday. That was, you know, important to them. They couldn't be at both places and he had to be up at Quakertown. Now he needed somebody to

00:49:58.899 - 00:50:31.780

manage his markets on the weekend here. Would I take the job? Yeah, I took the job. The insurance business? I've got stains in two farmers' markets. And I'm managing a market. It's 7 days a week. And that went on And in 19 that was in 1952

00:50:33.030 - 00:50:57.370

is when I went into that market. In 1955, he decided to open up another market in New Jersey near Woodbury. And of course I worked on that and everything else. Then he came to me. He said, Al. I have 3 markets. I need somebody. So Now

00:50:57.370 - 00:51:18.409

I had a decision to make. I had 9 years in insurance. The 10th year would have been I was. Like tenure, I, I, I was funded my uh. Retirement plan would have been affected and everything else. And, and it was a a really a tough decision

00:51:18.409 - 00:51:38.429

to make, but the idea of just running 3 markets instead of working 4 jobs and stuff like that appealed to me, and I left the insurance and I became a supervisor for 3 markets. Is that what you did till you retired essentially? I did that Until

00:51:38.429 - 00:52:06.090

19. 59 I think OK. For about 4 years, for about 4 years I think it was OK. I get a call one day. From the people that owned actually they were a public company, but they were the founders of the company. Of this pen food company,

00:52:06.280 - 00:52:24.100

which was the largest uh. You know, there was a food fair, Acme, AMP and stuff like pen food. was the king of them all in in the city. I knew the owners from when I was working for them. So many times I get a call from

00:52:24.100 - 00:52:54.139

them. At that time, It was the beginning of. Discounting Are you familiar what discounting is or do you mean coupons? No, you, you know, the, the stores. Well, Walmart is a is a fancy division of it. There were any number of businesses that grew up. And

00:52:54.139 - 00:53:13.290

depended upon mass merchandizing and selling in volumes. The prices were very, very low. They took old abandoned buildings and they created stores out of no fancy fixtures or anything, but they were discounted wholesale, no, no, no retail to the public, to the public, and they, they,

00:53:13.520 - 00:53:38.010

they two guys from Harrison. Well, they, they're all the uh Kmart was one of them at one time Woolworth was in there and They, they couldn't build them fast enough. This was the nature of the business and all retailers, major retailers. That serves the public retail

00:53:38.010 - 00:53:53.189

wise we're looking for ways to get into it. So this day I get a call from uh the people that own the the the food fair, uh Pen food and called me in. Uh They knew what I was doing, they would like to go into the

00:53:53.189 - 00:54:18.979

business. Uh discounting they knew well this farmers' market, the one that we opened in New Jersey. It was a combination of farmers' market and a discount store. Farmers' Market was open just on the weekend, so the discount was open all week. And uh They had a

00:54:18.979 - 00:54:43.080

location. And would I be interested? They uh Let me know where the location was. I knew where it was. And I knew that as far as the demographics there as far as the people that lived in the area and the neighborhood was ideal for that kind

00:54:43.080 - 00:55:06.159

of operation. Blue collar workers, a lot of kids. Ideal. It was a two-level thing. They had a supermarket downstairs and on the upper level they had this empty loft like it was, you know, I said how big is it? they said 20,000 ft. I said forget

00:55:06.159 - 00:55:29.300

it. I said, well, you know, I'm playing around here with markets that are the smallest one we had was 80,000 square feet. And I said, you just don't have enough room. Mhm. To make enough money And at that time, unlike today, today in these discount stores

00:55:30.149 - 00:55:53.139

like the Walmart, the Kmarts, The owners, they run all the departments. In my day, an entrepreneur would come in and lease a space, then he would go out and find tenants for shoes, for hardware, for menswear, for clothing, and he would rent space for them, a

00:55:53.139 - 00:56:11.949

rental, either a flat rental or a percentage rental or whatever, and you had to know where to get these people. And I said, you know, it's 20,000 ft. If if I'm gonna get a ladies' wear, he's gonna want 10,000 ft himself. What am I gonna do,

00:56:12.020 - 00:56:28.439

you know, and you gotta have a variety, you're not gonna give him. Well, They wanted to try it. Why are would be interested in me? They knew first of all I had the background and second of all, they didn't want to lend their name to it

00:56:28.439 - 00:56:46.709

in case it was a failure, it shouldn't reflect back on them. I realized that. So I said, I saw them, they took me over and they showed me the building and it was. Four walls, no electricity, no water, no heat, no, it was never just an

00:56:46.709 - 00:57:02.439

unfinished loft, so I went back to them and I said. What do you expect me to do with that thing? He said, I said you gotta have this thing fill it, you got to have fixtures, you got to do things. He said so. I said, I

00:57:02.439 - 00:57:24.699

don't have any money. And again this thing cancer. We didn't ask you for money. Tell us what you need. I did it It was successful. The next year they came to me and said, OK, we're taking over now you're part of our organization. And we opened

00:57:24.699 - 00:57:51.840

up subsequently we opened up 3 or 4 or 5, I don't know how many of them. And uh Unfortunately they passed away. The two. They were originally the owners were. Three brothers and another gentleman, and when I when I went back with him only 2 We're

00:57:51.840 - 00:58:15.540

alive, one of the brothers and the other principal. They passed away. And a brother of one of the principals who had left the company and went out to Detroit. He was called in to take over the company. He and I never saw eye to eye. You

00:58:15.540 - 00:58:33.149

know, I I was a pretty cocky guy. He, he wanted, he was a very, very capable man, but you had to say yes, you could never say no, no matter what it was. If you said no, you were no longer part of his group. I said

00:58:33.149 - 00:58:52.800

no a few times. So they decided. After a while, that they could do without me, they brought in other people. Uh, relegated actually, the only thing I was doing at that particular point, I was coming in in the morning sharpening my pencils and doing crossway puzzles.

00:58:53.090 - 00:59:11.899

They, I was out of the loop entirely. They chose places to open without my knowledge or anything like that. They didn't. And I was called in one day by the personnel man. And gave me a song and a dance by, you know, new administration, Al. They

00:59:11.899 - 00:59:32.560

want things a little different way, but don't worry, we're going to take care of you. We're going to give you a very liberal. Mhm. Uh. you know, severance. What they didn't know. Was that when Penfoot called me in and said, OK, now you're part of my

00:59:32.560 - 00:59:50.250

our organization, I said to them, wait a minute. I said, you know, I left a pretty good job to come here. I said, what security are you giving me? I, I built this thing and they said, well, you know, what do you mean security you know

00:59:50.250 - 01:00:04.850

us. And I did, and as long as they were alive, I knew I didn't have to worry about anything. I said, Well, you know, I want to he said, What do you want? I said, I want a contract. They almost laughed me out of the place.

01:00:05.100 - 01:00:21.530

There wasn't anybody. The managers of the stores, the vice president, nobody had a contract with that company. You know, it was unheard of for them. I said, well, you know, I, I'm not too sure I want to do this. So he said, OK, we'll give you

01:00:21.530 - 01:00:49.100

a contract. took me down to the lawyer's office. One of the most prestigious firms here, uh. A name that you may hear or may have heard of Bernard Sigal, who is a former ABA. The chairman of the American Bar Association. Was the headline was uh Sigal

01:00:49.100 - 01:01:04.129

Schneider, Harrison and Sigal. That was the firm. Uh, and he was their partner and he was also a member of the board of directors of the Pen Fruit Company. So we went down to his office and the real estate man there or whoever it was that

01:01:04.129 - 01:01:24.260

handled the Penroot account, we came in with the uh the secretary of the company who was the son of one of the founders of Penroot and uh. He said to his son, he says, what are you doing? what what what's this business about a contract? So

01:01:24.260 - 01:01:44.239

he said, we don't give contracts. So Mike said. That's what we wanna do, so he says, all right, he turns around and he says, what do you want? So I told him what I wanted. I can just picture him today like threw down his pencil, he

01:01:44.239 - 01:01:58.409

turns around to this guy Mike, who's the secretary says, Why don't you just get in the whole company. So Mike says, come on, he's part of the family, leave him alone. I got what I wanted and what I wanted was. The only way that they could

01:01:58.409 - 01:02:13.780

get rid of me was if they caught me with my hand in the till stealing or if they wanted to get rid of me, give me back the stores to operate. The stores were operating profitably. This personnel man, when he called me in, it was going

01:02:13.780 - 01:02:28.090

to give me this great severance pay, a full year's pay and stuff like that, didn't know about it. So after you finished, I says, well, Andy, that's a pretty generous offer, but if you don't mind, uh, I'll turn it down. I'll take it to the store.

01:02:29.530 - 01:02:46.030

Looked at me and he said, What are you talking about? I said you better go into the office and find out what you're talking about. That was the last I heard from him. I went back to shopping my pencil doing my coursework. But it was eating

01:02:46.030 - 01:03:07.209

me alive, I uh. It was, it was just affecting me that. And I, I was getting sick over it, so finally I went back to him. Dandy I said, now you called me in last time. And then you didn't call me back. Now I'm telling you

01:03:07.209 - 01:03:27.129

right now, I'm the president of this company. Either I run the stores. Or you guys better do something about it. Well, the guy that was running it, the one they called him from Detroit, he wanted me out no matter what, and no matter what was pretty

01:03:27.129 - 01:03:48.489

good for me. They decide they'd pay my salary until my retirement. And then get my normal pension from them and everything else. I was about 55 years old. On retirement and everything like that, the rails at my feet and everything is fine, no more work. So

01:03:48.489 - 01:04:09.570

you've been retired since 55 so you've been retired since well, I, I, you know, I, it happened and it happened in, in, in uh January. I terminated. I used to do the food shopping for our family of course after a while I knew something about food

01:04:10.149 - 01:04:27.780

and I'm coming home from food shopping. I hear a horn blowing behind me. When I pull over and it happens to be the owner of the Quakertown farmers market. This young fellow that right, right, and you know, after we greeted each other and everything, he says,

01:04:27.860 - 01:04:49.610

what are you doing, girl? So I said I'm not doing anything. It's that's great. The person that I had hired before I left them to run Quakertown Farmers' market died. I needed somebody. I said thanks but no thanks. No more night work for me. No more

01:04:49.610 - 01:05:06.110

this, that, no work, he said, no, no, you don't understand. The assistant manager can do the job, but I want somebody there protecting my interests. I said, Bob, I don't have to work. I don't work. He says, how I, I, I need, I need somebody there.

01:05:07.169 - 01:05:31.939

I said, OK. I'll give it a trial. I work with them I'll stay there for a year. We'll see how it works out, but no night work, no Sundays. I'll go up there 3 days a week. The market was open 3. I'll go up 1 day

01:05:31.939 - 01:05:44.179

a week. I'll be up there on Saturday and 2 other days, but that's all. He says fine, go up there, tell them how much to pay you, and that's it. And that's the words of use, go up there and tell them how much to pay you.

01:05:47.010 - 01:06:19.070

So I went up there. That was in 1972. And I worked there And I used to go up there 3 days a week. In 19. That was 72. I was only gonna work a year, remember? I was still there in 1993. That's when Esther got sick.

01:06:21.030 - 01:06:42.520

Is she all right now? Is she better now? I I passed away in 30, I'm sorry. I, I'm sorry. And I cut down when she was sick. I cut down from 3 days, 2 days, 1 day. And finally I said to uh. The boss, I said,

01:06:43.010 - 01:06:59.000

sorry, I can't do it anymore. I'm, I've got to be home. I can't come up here. He said if that's what you got to do, OK. And they wrote me a letter Saying that I was on retirement, my pay would continue just as if I was

01:06:59.000 - 01:07:25.270

working. This is the guy whose guts I hated. And uh that's the way it's been since today. So, uh, I've been, you know, retired. I was in the. 93. I go back there maybe 3 or 4 times a year to say hello to the people I

01:07:25.270 - 01:07:45.360

know up there and stuff like that. And uh that's my life. As I say, as you can see, it was always somebody helping me. And I think I've tried to return the favor. I've made it. My life's ambitious. If I can help anybody get that push,

01:07:45.520 - 01:08:08.620

that's what they're going to do. Um, now let's go back to work. I'm gonna ask you one last question. Um, are there any questions that you think that I should ask, Alan? About what About anything. That deals with his life or his philosophy about certain things.

01:08:11.250 - 01:08:45.520

Because you know him, um, much, much better than many people, certainly better than I do. I, I would like Just to cooperate something. Ask him who uh Parent teacher or whatever had a great deal to do with his. Liberalism if you will, or or or things

01:08:45.520 - 01:09:12.769

like that, see if he remembers Tony. Uh, Well, you know, the, the question of course that everybody. Is that sooner or later what what would you like to? Be known as or you know, what, what, what, what do you think your greatest achievement would be or

01:09:12.778 - 01:09:34.250

or something like that? That's a uh a question that uh everybody and it tells a lot about a person, you know, what they would like to be or something. And if it wasn't doing law work or teaching, what would you want to be doing? Probably say

01:09:34.250 - 01:10:25.430

playing for the Philadelphia Phillies. Thank you so much. I'm actually gonna turn off the tape, um, now, but we can continue talking at the moment. the $4500 you'd be contributing toward the renovations and so you're 900. To

01:10:25.430 - 01:10:42.819

contribute to the. Renovations Well, I think we're 2100, I think it's, is what, what we would consider to be fair market value. You at about 2,022,060, but um. You know, he feels like he needs to get more than fair market value if he's going to be

01:10:42.819 - 01:11:07.620

contributing these renovations and having abandoned this, this, the prior lease. um, he'd be 500. And I think that way. We don't at least uh. Be moving towards um preserving this relationship, you know, like I said, you're, you, you, you'd be getting. Uh, about almost $600 less

01:11:07.620 - 01:11:25.830

than you're paying now at an improved property, so, um. You know, I think that letting you off of this lease that you've obligated yourself to is generous enough, contributing over $4000 to improvements of the property which weren't included in the original lease is also pretty generous,

01:11:25.950 - 01:11:49.419

so they ask you for something above market value. Are, are you looking to, I mean, well, we, we have a lease of 2 years now. Is it something, I mean, is it, since the market's low or is it somewhat difficult, are you increase, um, uh, the,

01:11:49.430 - 01:12:05.640

the terms or the, the period of the lease? Yeah, we'd love, I mean, we'd love to, we'd love to. Now would that be, I mean it because at this point, the, um, the dollar numbers aren't. Aren't going to quite be there. Um, if, if potentially, you

01:12:05.640 - 01:12:31.319

know, um, we're, we're not in a, we're not in any position because of the, uh, to, to split the, um, At least 50/50 this uh. Um, improvements upfront. Um, potentially, um, you know, with another year on the lease, um, which would give you a period of

01:12:31.319 - 01:12:51.640

time to another year to recoup, um, any improvements, um, it would also give you time to, uh, in a way guarantee you fair market value for another year which would. Uh, maybe for your client, take out some of the, um, the, the problem with, uh, having

01:12:51.640 - 01:13:07.410

a, a lease that, uh, what you're changing is, is, is a lot of the dollar figures, um, so he could recoup over over that year, potentially some of the, uh, OK, so what, what I was thinking if you want to extend it to a 3 year

01:13:07.410 - 01:13:40.009

lease, let's make, yeah, let's make a 3 year lease, um. And Uh, I, I don't, certainly not 2025, um. We're looking at fair market value of 2100. I think that's that's fine. That's pretty close anyway if, if, if we were able to go to. 2250. Um,

01:13:42.149 - 01:14:12.229

For the extra year. That would give you 2. No, we, we could finish out for the from from now. And for I guess it would end up being um 3636 months um at 2250. And um. And I don't think we can can really. Um, add in

01:14:13.180 - 01:14:41.879

Anything on the um. Up front Um, that's gonna be a big problem. Because that's getting $150 over market over 36 months. That's $5400 so he'd be having to spend $9000 to make $5400 in three years. But assuming also that he's going to have, I mean, potentially

01:14:41.879 - 01:14:53.810

valuable improvements to his property, you know, who knows, 7-Eleven moves in there and they're going to want it rebuilt too, so I don't know how valuable those those improvements are going to be to him. I think they're of a much higher value to your client, so,

01:14:54.609 - 01:15:13.770

um. You know that that just means he's basically accepting substantially under fair market rent if he's going to shell out $9000 up front and then only take $150 over market value. And That I don't think it's gonna happen, to be honest with you. Um, So I

01:15:13.770 - 01:15:39.229

think we've got a problem on the uh on the improvements um. Yes um. And I guess we're at that point on the um. I mean it's, you know, part, part of this is that you're is the fact that by increasing the year, you're, you're locking in,

01:15:39.359 - 01:15:54.540

you're, you're not going to have the turnover and. When this lease is over, it's going to take some time to get somebody in if the market's bad. You're gonna basically have have your property sitting um. With with nobody in it I mean they they just I

01:15:54.540 - 01:16:08.700

mean it's guaranteeing you at least uh a steady income stream for that. Um, that period of time. Well, I think, I mean, I think that the value of the property is improving, um, possibly dramatically based on the, uh, on the shopping center across the street. Um,

01:16:09.209 - 01:16:25.450

I, I was just under the impression. Well, I mean, we're agreeing that the fair market value has gone up 12% over the last two years. I think that's, that's pretty good, um. But you know, I, I agree it's it's, it's a valuable income stream to have

01:16:25.450 - 01:16:37.069

another year on the on the lease, but it's not, it's not valuable enough to convince my client that he ought to have to spend $9000 on improvements in order to make $5400 extra dollars on his lease, you know, especially when we're looking now at that you're

01:16:37.069 - 01:16:57.959

making $3000 lease payments and making decent money. Um, you know, that's that's an awfully big change you're talking about. $12,000 a year savings on your client's part, um, which is basically $12,000 out of my client's pocket to uh. You know, continue funding your business, um. We

01:16:57.959 - 01:17:10.830

uh I'm just wondering if there's any anything else we can work out here, um. You know, I think it it it seems to me that you wouldn't be looking for these improvements if you didn't think that they were going to increase your revenues. Well, I mean,

01:17:11.509 - 01:17:29.859

certainly the, the idea is to try to expand. Uh, we are, I mean, the, the biggest limitation we have now is this, is that, um, the property is not, um, it's, it's small for us at this point, um, but at the same point, you know, the,

01:17:29.959 - 01:17:45.580

yeah, the, the greater, um. The more the easier it is for our customers to come in and out. We have a lot of old customers, um, you know, the, the more modern it looks, I mean we are talking about, you know, a building that's competing now

01:17:45.580 - 01:18:02.790

against a very fanciful mall, so it kind of looks a little dreary compared to that, um. Yeah, I mean, I, I agree. I think the improvements will, will definitely help business, uh, and, and, and at the same point, give your client, um. A property that I

01:18:02.790 - 01:18:19.250

think he's going to be have a much greater chance of releasing in the long run. Yeah, I mean, I, I agree that it's going to improve the value of the property, whether it's going to actually he's going to get it out when he relets it. I

01:18:19.250 - 01:18:28.709

don't know. I mean, I don't think anybody knows if, uh, like I said, if some other business comes in that wants renovations, then they're going to be worthless. We're just going to have to tear them out and start over again, um, so we're taking an awfully

01:18:28.709 - 01:19:18.410

big chance on, you know. Um, So You know, I guess, are you looking at um Without, I guess, I mean if we, if we don't do the improvements. So we, we reduced, I guess, the issue of denying. The $9000. And I would like to see these

01:19:18.410 - 01:19:33.069

improvements get made because I think that they're going to improve your business, um. I just don't think I can ask my client to fund them, certainly not entirely. I don't think anything more than 50/50, to be honest with you, um, but yeah, without the improvements, um,

01:19:33.799 - 01:19:53.220

maybe we can get closer to, you know, the 2100 figure, um, but like I said, I think it's probably good for everyone if we can get the improvements done, um. But what, what would you uh Well, I mean, without, without the improvements, I. You know, in

01:19:53.220 - 01:20:13.819

order to to to get a a fixed. And we still We want this fixed rate of, of um rental payments, um, so we would be willing, you know, to potentially go out uh for one year, it would still be 36 months. But certainly at a a

01:20:13.830 - 01:20:29.459

a lower rate than uh with the improvements, I think if we were back. Around the uh the fair market value, um, then we could uh. We could do that. I mean it gives you an extra year and by fair market value you're talking about the 20

01:20:29.459 - 01:21:00.319

2100 would be, you know, it gives you an extra year of of rent at uh at fair market of of full um fair market value, um. That might be something we could work with. How about um The uh How if we talk about some sort of

01:21:00.319 - 01:21:20.990

uh. Possibly well. I don't know. Um, I can, I can approach him with it. It's still not, not a tremendously appealing offer, basically it's just, you're asking him to knock $1000 off your rent. Um, for, yeah, for an extra year of, uh, yeah, that, I mean

01:21:20.990 - 01:21:42.189

that's that's, that's a lot to be asking, um. I think it might work if uh. Yeah, I don't know if that's gonna work. I don't know if I can get that. How about um? How about if we talk about a percentage and uh. Something You know,

01:21:42.270 - 01:22:01.859

something smaller than the than the 70 7.5 or with a higher. Higher minimum or something just so he feels like he's recouping some of his earlier investment um. OK, I think that's that that might be something that that I could commit to, but um. As it

01:22:01.859 - 01:22:20.270

is Um I don't know. I don't know if it's gonna work, but certainly is it I mean that increasing the length of the the really isn't something he's concerned with. I mean I think that's it. I think that's something we could work with. In fact, if

01:22:20.270 - 01:22:35.430

we increased it more, we might even be able to, uh, you know, it might make it more appealing if we if we added some. Some relatively non-neual and probably, you know, at this point we've decided it's gone up about 12% over the last two years, um,

01:22:36.160 - 01:22:51.779

you know, I think an annual increase built into the rental, into the rental price. It's gonna make it more appealing, um, you know, maybe add to that some small percentage of gross receipts over, you know, some higher number than the, than the 1800 that he's got

01:22:51.779 - 01:23:08.910

right now, and that way he can still plan on some. That's some pretty substantial monthly income and then you know my client can feel like he's participating at least in some small way. In the pits Um You know, I don't know, but at this point, at

01:23:08.910 - 01:23:30.109

this point we're getting about 7.5% over uh overgrowth rate of 18186. Right. I think I, you know, part of the reason my my client feels so is somewhat unhappy with this is that I mean usually these, these clauses are are somewhere around 1.5% in convenience stores

01:23:30.109 - 01:23:53.000

and 3.5% is relatively common, but I mean I understand that so. So if, if, if, if we could move in that direction. Um, 1.5%. Over the over over what number? Well, let's go over the 6. Well, maybe we can let's let's see what it works out

01:23:53.000 - 01:24:25.660

with over the 16 with the current terms, yeah, well, so we'll, we'll assume that your income's gonna remain at 40,000 for at least a little while, um. I think it was 18667, um, 1.5% of the remainder is $320 a month. Um, Well, let me just make

01:24:25.660 - 01:24:59.189

sure that I did that correctly. All right, so we're talking 40,000, um, 18667, that leaves about 21,333, 1.5% of that, yeah, $320 almost exactly, um. Well, That's certainly not the $3100 he has been getting. But um I think in the, in the name of. Preserving family

01:24:59.189 - 01:25:15.500

unity, that's probably a good, at least a very good starting point. Um, You know, like I said, I'd like to see the renovations get done, but if you, you know, if it's gonna be a problem coming up with the cash initially, then I guess, I guess

01:25:15.500 - 01:26:20.939

we'll probably have to bag that idea. So let's, so what, what do we? Oh yeah, on um. On the the last offer on improvements was what 2250. Um, And um I guess The, uh, so I mean, so I, I think

01:26:20.939 - 01:26:45.950

that um the the improvements are important here too, so, um, I, I think, um. Well, So we could, we could put $1000. Um, on that, that would be um. That's it. Uh, it's the most where we'd be able to, uh, absolute most, be able to add,

01:26:45.959 - 01:27:03.080

right, well, um, I think they're not gonna get that I don't think so. I don't think that there's any way I could get them to, you know, take out $8000 right now, um. But I mean I mean it's it's a good idea, you know, maybe when

01:27:03.080 - 01:27:31.540

uh maybe when the current lease turns up we can talk about it, um. All right, so absent improvements, the current uh. We've got 36 months of 2100. Um, plus 1.5% of revenues in excess of 18667. Well, If uh No, I mean, our, our Her research says

01:27:32.810 - 01:27:59.259

That uh A percentage closer to um. 3.5% is actually relatively common in the sort of convenience store industry. Um, well, now I understand yeah I mean we're, we're, we're actually, I, we're actually sure beats the 7.5% beyond, um, dollar wise what my clients, uh. Is willing

01:27:59.259 - 01:28:33.100

to uh to pay because we're looking at basically now at $2100 plus the, the 320 we're we're looking at uh $2400 a month for, for 30 for 36 months. Um Well, that's Um Well, what I mean, we could, we could, you know, if we could

01:28:33.100 - 01:29:12.919

play on the um. If you want, we could, we could set the minimum. At the fair market value of 2100 if that'll that'll help. I don't have we don't have a problem with that, um. At 36, um. For 36 months. Without any improvements. Um So

01:29:12.919 - 01:29:32.189

I mean we. We could, um, I was thinking we could go. Go back and look at the um. The minimum, I mean, I guess a higher minimum is something that you're, I mean of course I think that at the very least we've got, we've got to

01:29:32.189 - 01:29:46.950

start at fair market value now and then work up at least a little bit from there. um, I don't think we can go we'd be willing to set a minimum higher than fair market value. Um, but yeah, then, then I think as long as we build

01:29:46.950 - 01:30:04.109

a decent some sort of percentage back in then, then, you know, we can probably reach an agreement, um. You know, like As, as we've sort of agreed on going from a, from an income stream of, uh, you know, over $3000 a month, which is, you know.

01:30:05.299 - 01:30:24.040

Which is contained in the lease that your client signed to going down to $2100 a month, um, without getting anything in return is rather extreme request to go down from 30, we've been getting 3,67 for the last few months. Well, right, I mean, I, I understand

01:30:24.040 - 01:30:49.060

that that the same point, um. That's not something that uh well I mean what we expect to uh well I mean what does he consider to be his his his maximum price then um well, we're looking at um 2020. 400. Um, For 36 months, um, that's

01:30:49.500 - 01:31:13.240

with no improvements. Um, well, that's as a flat rental rate, I mean, is that what you're offering or? That's, that's what, that's basically what we'll pay and with no, with no percentage, um, with no percentage, mm. Um, Can we give them just some some sort of

01:31:13.240 - 01:31:35.069

minor nominal percentage to make him feel better? Well, that's what I was trying to get back to if we can if we can go with the 21. Um, and stick it at so that it, it gets. You know, at, at looking at this, this current picture.

01:31:35.959 - 01:31:55.299

Of of 40 40,000, um, well, I mean the original proposal which was 2100 minimum plus 1.5% of I mean just put them over at 2420 a month and and that's. The 20 would be beyond what I'm authorized. All right, well I'll tell you what, let's uh.

01:31:57.850 - 01:32:23.500

Let's uh Let's leave the percentage but cap the rent at $2400 a month, OK, um. And uh And uh That We'll probably do it, um, it. Let me see exactly what I've been authorized for here. If we could build even a tiny annual increase into that,

01:32:23.600 - 01:33:02.029

I think we can, I think we got a deal. Um You know, lately it's been going up at 6% a year. Um The guy's not gonna go for. I increase Well, All right. $2400 a month for 36 months, um. So you, you, you're gonna say 21

01:33:02.029 - 01:33:14.919

plus the 1.5. Well, does he prefer that, or does he just want to, I mean, does he want a fixed rent so he knows his, well, I mean, obviously it's a little bit preferable to him to have the percentage because then if his revenues sink, he's

01:33:14.919 - 01:33:31.370

got to save a little bit of money, um, although it would simplify the deal if we could just say for 36 months at $2400. Yeah, I think we can, we can do that. All right, but no annual increase, huh? No annual increase and no percentage. And

01:33:31.370 - 01:34:11.459

no percentage. All right, deal, OK. Draw the contract. Now, We, we got, we're not, I mean, we're, we're sad at at. Edit the office is there. Any way to. Um, To look at these improvements. I don't know, not if we've only got $1000 to spend. Well,

01:34:11.589 - 01:34:32.029

I mean, carpentry, the one, I mean the one thing he'd be, I guess he would be willing is the uh. Is potentially the the the extra year. I don't know, but um If you don't, if you don't see any, any way to get that. I mean

01:34:32.029 - 01:34:46.950

that that's it. $1000 is, is the most he'd be willing to add in. Um, yeah, I, I, I don't, I don't see how it's gonna work out with these, with these numbers, um, you know, I think he would be, uh. I think my client's gonna need

01:34:46.950 - 01:35:05.109

to have, you know, a substantial rent increase if he's gonna, if he's gonna make. These improvements Um OK, yeah, I don't, I, I, I don't see it happening. I mean, maybe we can uh. We can put a covenant in the leaflet in a year we can

01:35:05.109 - 01:35:18.819

see if we can, you know, work out, you know, based on these minimums, see if we can work out something to get the improvements done, um, OK. I, I mean, I, I think there, it would be nice to get those, um, but I think we start

01:35:18.819 - 01:35:38.540

with what we have and uh. And hopefully at this point then um the two families will yeah I I think that's fair um what uh. Any other places, other, you know, opening these things up elsewhere. Well, I mean, you know, as you know, my client's got

01:35:38.540 - 01:35:52.060

a bunch of properties that he I mean, you know, we definitely want to try to preserve the relationship so that the one thing we'd like to do, I mean, is not necessarily of opening up, um, another business right now, but we're, we, we would, I don't

01:35:52.060 - 01:36:10.350

know if you don't have anything that's like 7000 square feet. I don't actually know. I can certainly check, um, at least as far as my information is. They, they weren't, uh, weren't around at this point. I mean that's something we, we wanna grow so I think

01:36:10.350 - 01:36:24.390

um. It would be foreseeable that there's gonna be some kind of well, let's, um, we don't wanna, yeah, I mean right now we, we, we don't want to lose our customer base. So that's yeah, absolutely, and I think that's 11 good reason to be staying where

01:36:24.390 - 01:36:37.080

you are. Well, let's, um, let's throw in some sort of side agreement that says that, uh. You know, we'll negotiate in good faith over any new, uh, any new properties you'd like, you know, I don't think we need to do anything binding, but at least to

01:36:37.080 - 01:36:54.399

sort of, uh, have our clients. Express to each other that you know they want to try to maintain this relationship and bargaining in good faith is loose enough that neither is gonna be really bound, but I think that's that's very fair, something that uh. It was

01:36:54.399 - 01:37:27.509

like Um, And, and, and I assume they would probably end up doing this anyway, but we probably could put something in there about bargaining and faith over any renewal term too. Um, again, just to sort of. Um, anything else we need to do here? Anything else

01:37:27.509 - 01:37:56.939

we can, uh. We can sweeten this way. Mm Yeah, I mean, well, let's, let's put in the, the, the, the, um, uh, there should be some research on um the possibility of, of expanding this location to um. 7000 square feet and um you know to as

01:37:56.939 - 01:38:17.399

far because I, I, I think that that's something that is is certainly gonna come into play uh. When, when I need to, I mean, there's no doubt that he, that's what he wants. And I think it's only good for for everybody. Um, if we get you

01:38:17.399 - 01:38:34.379

another negotiating good faith term over um expanding the current property to 7000 ft. Because it looks from my reading of the zoning thing here that we've got we've got 3014 on the one side, right? Is this where you're looking at? Well, I wasn't quite sure, but

01:38:34.379 - 01:38:48.089

it looked to me like we've got this is the front, um, so we can't, we can't come anywhere there. We've got that back so we either have it, I guess here it would be probably better because the way the layout is. We've got room over here

01:38:48.589 - 01:39:04.470

to, uh. I mean, It's hard to tell from the uh this little 40 40 ft figure. Don't really know exactly what that was referring to. I I wasn't sure either, but it looks like we could get 2000 more square feet in there, um, you know, currently

01:39:04.470 - 01:39:19.029

also a one story building. We might be able to go to 2 stories, you know, 3 years from now you might want 10, 10,000 square feet. Who knows. Um But yeah, that's definitely something we can work on. Yeah, I mean, the only other thing is with

01:39:19.029 - 01:39:40.200

the um. With the improvements $1000 to put up. See, he is there any, is there any one? See, the thing is he would not go up at all. Um, he'd actually, he, he would not go up at all as far as trying to put those in

01:39:40.939 - 01:40:01.490

beyond what we've got. Yeah, see, I, my client seems to think that um. Any major renovations are gonna run 50 to $60 a square foot, which would mean $50 to $60 a square foot, right? So I mean just for reference, if we were talking about uh.

01:40:03.279 - 01:40:26.200

Adding uh You know, adding 2000 square feet, you know, that's, that's gonna be a substantial sum of money. $110,000. OK, but just, you know, just so we establish that obviously there's ways to finance that that. We'll take a bit of the bite out of it, um.

01:40:27.069 - 01:41:16.529

Are there any one improvement that he particularly wants or? Let me see if he's if if he's got them um. Prioritized. Hm. Um, Well, I guess The um The The doors are something he really wants, but he didn't, he didn't really set these up in

01:41:16.529 - 01:41:40.879

any, yeah, and I don't know and I don't have figures on what what that's gonna individual thing would cost, yeah. Um Well, they, you know, uh, assuming we've got this lease worked out, I think. Basically we can be assured that the relationship is You know, back

01:41:40.879 - 01:42:02.799

on track and now they can probably Talk about improvements right like civilized human beings, I guess the one thing I mean because of what my client wants is the flexibility to think as far as the lease, um. I'm wondering if If these dos if we were

01:42:02.799 - 01:42:30.109

to. No, I still don't think we, I, I was thinking we could, could extend the lease. Um, at the, at this dollar amount. To pick up Maybe some of the You know, to, to, I guess it would be 4 years. But uh as long as there

01:42:30.109 - 01:42:45.040

was a contract that said at the end of the 3rd year, both parties would have the right to To end the lease, but I don't, um, I don't think that's gonna work for us, you know, um, well, I don't know, maybe based on the savings he's

01:42:45.040 - 01:43:02.450

coming up with this with the, with the lease, and in a few months he can. Cough up more money and we can work, but I disagreement will work for now. Well, I think so. So we'll write it up and then, um, so 2,436 months, uh, covenant

01:43:02.450 - 01:43:35.000

to bargain in good faith over new properties, uh, a renewal term, and expanding the current property. And the expansion right. All right, sounds good. Sounds good to me. All right. Do you know how to turn this on? Stop and eject. Damn technology.