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Well, good day, everybody who's ever watching this. My name is Bill Thurman. I'm a bankruptcy judge in Salt Lake City and I'm interviewing a good friend and colleague of mine, Tom Small, former judge, and we're doing this for the National Conference of Bankruptcy

00:00:19.930 - 00:00:43.529

Judges, the NCBJ. The NCBJ thought it would be nice to have some real standouts on video recordings that we could keep at the Biddle library. And so when I complete this interview with Tom, we will make arrangements to send this to Biddle, and it'll be archived

00:00:43.529 - 00:01:03.900

there forever. And the NCBJ is having a big conference this coming fall in San Diego, and, I think they're going to have some of these interviews available for people to come look at. So thank you, Tom, for joining us. Sure, glad to. I know

00:01:03.900 - 00:01:23.879

you're in North Carolina today, aren't you? Yes. Well, that's terrific. And how are things in North Carolina? A little warm, a little humid, could use a little rain. OK, well, summertime's here. We're gonna keep all the rain we get. We're not gonna send you any.

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We're so dry here. Today is May 26, 2026 just for the record. Well, Tom you've had a very distinguished career. Where did you grow up and go to school in the earlier years? Well I grew up on

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Long Island in New York. Graduated from Garden City High School. Went to Duke University where I met Judy Joe. When we graduated, she wanted to go to graduate school, which she did. And I went to a Wall Street Bank. And a year later, we

00:02:11.929 - 00:02:26.929

got married and she wanted to teach in college. I wanted to go to law school, so we applied around the country and we both ended up at Wake Forest. She was in the English department at Wake Forest and I went to Wake Forest Law School.

00:02:27.080 - 00:02:45.559

We've been married now 60 years next month, we've got 2 children and 4 grandchildren. Well, congratulations on that. Thank you. Did you like your experience in law school? How was Wake Forest for law? Oh it was a great experience. It was

00:02:45.559 - 00:03:07.470

a small law school. We had maybe I don't know, less than 100 students, and in my class there were less than 100, and it was a great experience. And following graduation from Wake Forest

00:03:07.860 - 00:03:27.380

what did you do? Well, I went to work for a large regional bank, First Union National Bank, but not as a lawyer. I went as a banker. My father had been a banker at Chase Manhattan Bank, and so I was following in his

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footsteps and thought I'd just be a banker. Well, you had some experience already on Wall Street doing some banking. How did that lead you into or did it lead you into an interest

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in bankruptcy law? Well the bank had a number of problem loans. They had one really large problem loan that got involved in a corporate reorganization. Now back then, that was chapter 10 under the old Bankruptcy Act and they asked me if

00:04:10.029 - 00:04:24.790

I could handle that case and I said I'd give it a try. And it turned out I really liked the lawyers that were involved and I liked the bankruptcy law. The bank got a good result that they didn't anticipate and the next thing you know, I

00:04:24.790 - 00:04:43.679

was no longer a banker, I was a bank lawyer and then the bank had a lot of other problem loans, mostly real estate loans around the country. So I got to see the inside of a lot of bankruptcy courts and then the Bankruptcy Reform Act

00:04:43.679 - 00:05:02.600

was passed and to learn it, I thought it would be best if I taught it. So I started teaching at the Campbell Law School at night. And then the American Bankers Association asked me if I would write a manual for loan officers, a bankruptcy manual,

00:05:02.649 - 00:05:25.940

which I did, and then they asked me if I'd represent the Bankers Association in trying to get some improvements they thought to the Bankruptcy Reform Act and make it more creditor-friendly. Fantastic. Now, after doing all that good stuff around

00:05:25.940 - 00:05:47.899

the country for the bank, how did you get interested in being, becoming a judge? Well, the Eastern District of North Carolina had a very heavy docket and only one bankruptcy judge. Congress added another bankruptcy judge and I applied for it.

00:05:48.480 - 00:06:17.269

My appointment was very interesting in a number of respects. Back then, the appointment was made by district court judges for a six-year term. And the first Respect that it was interesting was that The Bankruptcy Reform Act said that Bankruptcy judges had to have

00:06:17.269 - 00:06:37.519

presidential appointments they'd still be Article One judges, but they'd have to have a presidential appointment. And for me, that meant that 6 months after My appointment, I would have had to have had a presidential appointment. So I didn't have any political connections, so

00:06:37.519 - 00:07:00.730

I thought, gee, this would be a fun job for 16 months, but I'll be back at the bank after, after that. The other respect that my appointment was interesting is that in 1982 is when Northern pipeline, summer of 1982, Northern pipeline was

00:07:00.730 - 00:07:25.510

decided and basically Northern Pipeline said that bankruptcy judges had too much jurisdiction. They were doing things that were unconstitutional. But they said that that opinion would not go into effect until October 4th, to allow Congress to change the law. Well, bankruptcy judges then could be

00:07:25.510 - 00:07:58.109

unconstitutional until October 4th. That was my birthday, but Congress didn't do anything and then the Supreme Court said, well, you can be unconstitutional until Christmas Eve of 1982. Well, my FBI clearance took place on December 10th and I immediately got sworn

00:07:58.109 - 00:08:25.589

in. So I had those Article 3 powers for 10 days. And then on Christmas Eve, Northern pipeline went into effect and I lost all that jurisdiction. However, Congress was still in session and before they adjourned, they gave us all raises and I thought,

00:08:25.799 - 00:08:44.400

man, this is great. I've only been on the job here 10 days. I lost my jurisdiction, but I got a raise. Now, in the bank, that never happened so quickly, but anyway, so that was my appointment and Congress eventually extended

00:08:44.400 - 00:09:04.780

all the bankruptcy judges for 4 years and then I had those 4 years plus 2 14-year appointments by the Fourth Circuit. Did you ever get a presidential appointment? I know, but I still have the letter where I applied to President

00:09:04.780 - 00:09:25.760

Reagan for the appointment. Of course that never took place. Ok, so you took the bench probably the late 80s or mid early 80s - 82. OK. 82. Welcome to the bench and welcome to Northern Pipeline. That'd be a great

00:09:25.760 - 00:09:51.719

way to start a career, right. What was the practice like before you back in those early days in the Eastern District? Well, the Eastern District in North Carolina consisted of 44 mostly rural counties, that all the counties east of Raleigh. We

00:09:51.719 - 00:10:14.770

had a lot of high-tech companies becaus our district included the Research Triangle. But, while we had some very big cases, most of my cases were small business cases or agricultural ventures, and of course, a lot of consumer cases. Now you had basically a

00:10:14.770 - 00:10:32.309

lot of small business cases. Well, you told me one time that you had a Texaco had filed in your district. That's right, you know at the time Texaco was the largest chapter 11 case in the Southern District of New York.

00:10:33.000 - 00:10:52.789

But I had a Texaco case too. It was Bobby's Texaco of Wendell, North Carolina, the corner of Texaco station. Well, OK, I had a similar one here in Salt Lake and I claimed ownership of it. Now, early on, you

00:10:52.789 - 00:11:17.630

got involved in the NCBJ, didn't you? Was that almost simultaneously as when you became a judge? Well, Bill Anderson, bankruptcy judge in Virginia, was my tennis partner, and he was the 4th Circuit representative to the NCBJ board. And when his

00:11:17.630 - 00:11:43.820

term expired, he encouraged me to get involved with the NCBJ board and I became the Fourth Circuit representative. I chaired Two educational committees, one in San Antonio and one in Dallas. I chaired three different long-range committees and I think I chaired the

00:11:43.820 - 00:12:07.679

endowment, I was the secretary, vice president, and in 2001, I was the NCBJ president. Those were good years. What were some of the things that you recommended to the NCBJ during those years that your participation in leadership? Well, in the long-range planning

00:12:07.679 - 00:12:28.979

committees, the two most important things we recommended were hiring an executive director. And that was Chris Molick, and then the second thing was establishing an endowment. Back then, the NCBJ had a lot of money that it made it its various conventions,

00:12:29.520 - 00:12:57.140

and it was important that we do something important with that money and the endowment was established. We also recommended establishing a website and funding the website. We also pushed for representation of bankruptcy judges on the circuit councils and also for

00:12:57.140 - 00:13:17.880

representation on the United States judicial conference. And you served on that judicial conference, did you not? I did actually. I was the first one appointed and it's kind of interesting the letter that I got from Chief Justice Rehnquist appointing me to that

00:13:17.880 - 00:13:44.340

position talks about being the bankruptcy representative to the judicial conference, as a non-voting representative. But since then, the term has become observer. I kind of like the bankruptcy representative title rather than observer, but, anyway. Still doesn't have

00:13:44.340 - 00:14:02.320

a vote, does he, or her? Still doesn't have a vote and one thing I always tried to do when I was on that was to try to get into the official photograph, but they never quite allowed that. Well, we'll take care

00:14:02.320 - 00:14:24.849

of that. We'll get another photograph of you. Maybe just insert it into the other one. Now there was an interesting debate at the annual meeting in Boston in 2000. And you'd been on the bench for a while and there really was

00:14:24.909 - 00:14:47.820

at the 2000 meeting. The issue was whether or not the conference should take a position against BAPCPA. I mean, I think all the bankruptcy judges were against BAPCPA, but as a conference, where we going to take a position against it? And that

00:14:47.820 - 00:15:15.690

was debated at the annual meeting. It's a breakfast meeting, the annual meeting, and we ran out of time. So we continued that over to the next breakfast meeting the next day. Well, the leadership changes after the annual meeting. So Mary Scott started off as the

00:15:15.690 - 00:15:41.440

president for that debate. And then I was the president when it resumed the next morning, and there were some very heated, or some very articulate discussions. Joe Lee particularly and Gene Wedoff made excellent presentations in favor of the conference coming out

00:15:41.440 - 00:16:06.260

against BAPCPA, but we never had a vote. We'll never know how it would have turned out because Tom Stennett moved to table the issue and the issue was tabled and it really left Bankruptcy judges on their own to contact their legislators and tell them

00:16:06.260 - 00:16:28.210

what they thought about BAPCPA. In fact, you and I and Gene Wedoff went to see your senator, Senator Orrin Hatch. That's right, who we thought might listen to us and maybe make some changes to it, but we didn't have much success, did

00:16:28.210 - 00:16:45.630

we, Bill? Well, Senator Hatch was great. He would listen to us, but then sometimes it would end there. He definitely listen to us, but I think as he left, he said they weren't going to change one word of it.

00:16:45.820 - 00:17:12.048

But anyway, I was reading some of the old conference news and back in the 40s. The conference was very active in legislation. In promoting various legislation. However, they were very much opposed. To doing anything to promote their own salaries or

00:17:12.048 - 00:17:37.829

their own benefits. I think it's just the opposite today where they're reluctant to take a position on legislation, but we do a lot for trying to promote our salaries and our benefits and I thank Bill Anderson every day that he was active

00:17:38.170 - 00:17:56.089

in getting our retirement. That annuity really comes in handy. You know, just a thought went through my mind here was that your former colleague, Randy Dobb in the Eastern District. He was on the Eastern District, wasn't he? I think

00:17:56.089 - 00:18:14.680

he was, yes, OK. He and I were the chairs, co-chairs of the NCBJ Legislative Committee, and our charge was to go up on the hill, and we couldn't lobby, but we could educate and inform. And we visited the same thing, Senator Hatch and a

00:18:14.680 - 00:18:34.959

few other parties, and they were very receptive, very cordial, but I found that working through the staffs just was a little more effective than going right to the to the main senator or the congressman, but that's just me. Maybe that was just my perception. But I

00:18:34.959 - 00:18:49.900

sure miss your buddy Randy. He was a great guy. I really enjoyed him. Did you ever, well, of course, in the 4th Circuit, you'd get together and chum a little bit with Randy and some of the other guys, wouldn't you? Oh, sure, Randy

00:18:49.900 - 00:19:13.199

and I were good friends. That's great. Now, you were president then, as you mentioned, for the 2001 conference of the NCBJ, and that was held, where was that held? It was held in Orlando. OK, and how far after 9/11

00:19:13.199 - 00:19:32.939

did that occur? Well, of course, that was September 11th, and ours was in the beginning of October, so it wasn't very far removed from 9/11, and in fact, I was getting a lot of pressure to cancel the conference and

00:19:32.939 - 00:19:53.829

of course, we really didn't want to do that, but we did have a lot of cancellations. In fact, one of our main speakers, Peggy Noonan, canceled. And the security was very tight. The marshals wouldn't let us put up a banner. It

00:19:53.829 - 00:20:15.770

was our seventy-fifth conference, and they didn't want us to put up any banner or anything saying that what it was, a conference of, of judges. But overall I thought the conference was very important. It was a healing conference,

00:20:15.839 - 00:20:37.729

and I think we were all just really glad to be there together and I think unlike district court judges and circuit judges, bankruptcy judges are really close. They're a very collegial group and I think it was important that we came together

00:20:37.739 - 00:20:57.630

just to be with each other. What do you attribute that closeness to? What causes that? Well, maybe there aren't as manyof us as there are district court judges, but that's a good question. Do you have any

00:20:57.630 - 00:21:13.020

thoughts on that, Bill? Oh, I kind of have a thought. I'm sorry, it just popped into my mind just now, but I think it's because we're all dealing with the same law, and so we borrow decisions from our colleagues around the country, and

00:21:13.020 - 00:21:30.150

we get to appreciate their thought process and write in their decisions, and then we get together and we kind of socialize a lot, you know, on our convention, so maybe a combination of those two things and maybe just because we like to party a little

00:21:30.150 - 00:21:50.229

more. Maybe we're just party folks. That's right. That's all we are. When you were on the US Judicial Conference and you were the first bankruptcy representative on there and on the Long Range Planning Committee, what did it recommend regarding bankruptcy courts?

00:21:51.130 - 00:22:12.380

Ok. Now that long-range planning committee really was well before we had a bankruptcy judge representative on the judicial conference. OK, back in the early 90s, the chief justice, I think, wanted to have a complete review of the federal jurisdiction and he appointed, really

00:22:12.380 - 00:22:29.880

it was a blue ribbon committee. They had some of the best. Circuit judges and district court judges on the committee and the bankruptcy judge, I think was kind of an afterthought that when they realized that they had to do some Bankruptcy work. The

00:22:29.880 - 00:22:50.030

thrust of the course was just on federal jurisdiction, but they did recommend to make a few bankruptcy recommendations. One of them was against the US trustee system and in favor of the bankruptcy administrative system, which of course, we still have in North Carolina and in

00:22:50.040 - 00:23:18.349

Alabama. It was interesting. One of the recommendations that was Presented to the judicial conference by the Long Range Planning Committee was if we had another northern pipeline type constitutional crisis for bankruptcy jurisdiction that Congress should consider. Making bankruptcy judges Article 3 judges, and

00:23:18.349 - 00:23:40.010

even that language consider Article 3 status was too much for the judicial conference and that never made it into the long-range plan. Came close though but no cigar. I think I remember I heard stories about that stuff. And then

00:23:40.010 - 00:24:00.339

you became a member of the conference's bankruptcy rules Committee once you were on as a member of the bench, and what was that like? Well, it was certainly one of the highlights of my judicial career being chair of the Rules Committee and you know, the

00:24:00.339 - 00:24:23.750

bankruptcy rules have the force of law, and to me the rule-making process is lawmaking at its very best, and it basically takes 3 years for some bright idea to come along and then for it to become a rule. The committee is

00:24:23.750 - 00:24:47.150

made up of some of the best bankruptcy judges, lawyers, and professors and it's amazing that the lawyers leave their clients at the door and they really do seek to try to make the best rules possible. It's sent out for

00:24:47.150 - 00:25:10.589

public comment. There are public hearings. The big rules committee gets involved. The judicial conference gets involved, the Supreme Court gets involved, and Congress has an opportunity to make any changes to the recommendations. So it's a very thorough and very thoughtful process and when I was

00:25:10.589 - 00:25:35.060

chair, we thought BAPCPA was gonna pass. So we spent a lot of time trying to come up with the rules to implement BAPCPA. BAPCPA didn't pass while I was chair. But when it did pass, most of the work had, had already

00:25:35.060 - 00:25:57.500

been done and I think we really did a good job of making the rules maybe as less onerous than they might have been, uh, help me with the process here, Tom, or the procedure or whatever it's called. BAPCPA passed in 2005, if my

00:25:57.500 - 00:26:19.890

memory is correct. There were no rules in place at the time for implementing BAPCPA. But there were rules relating to the code, the bankruptcy reform code. Well, we proposed interim rules, because of this long

00:26:19.890 - 00:26:39.140

process that it takes to get the rules implemented. You know, with the public hearings and the public comments and it just takes a long time. We didn't have that time, so we proposed interim rules and they were adopted locally by each

00:26:39.140 - 00:26:59.469

jurisdiction as local rules. Ok and then it took the same process another year or two. Walk through the proceedings. And how long were you chair of that committee? Well, it's really interesting. I was

00:26:59.469 - 00:27:18.030

on the committee for 3 years as a regular member. And then usually you get reappointed for another 3 years, but I was walking out to the tennis court with the Chief Justice one day and he said, you know, Tom, I'm not gonna appoint

00:27:18.030 - 00:27:36.010

you to the committee or reappoint you and so you know what do you say to that? So, yeah, I got a lot of other things to do. Then a year later, I get a call and the Chief Justice wanted to appoint

00:27:36.010 - 00:28:01.189

me to be chair of the committee, which I was very happy to accept and served the chair for 4 years after that. Perfect. Well, that's an interesting and unique way to experience the committee process. Right. You had some involvement in Chapter 12,

00:28:01.439 - 00:28:33.489

didn't you? I did, and that was really interesting how that came about. There was a farm crisis back in '85. And there was a joint hearing held. Two Senate Judiciary subcommittees, one chaired by Senator Grassley and one by Senator

00:28:33.750 - 00:28:57.949

John East, who was the senator from North Carolina, and Judge Mickey Moore, my colleague, and I were asked to testify as to how farmers fared in chapter 11 cases and they were not doing well. So we told them about that and

00:28:57.949 - 00:29:19.369

at the end of the hearing, Senator Grassley asked me what I thought should be done. And I said, well, I think there needs to be a new emergency chapter much like there was an emergency chapter during the Depression, like the Frasier- Lemke Act to deal with

00:29:19.369 - 00:29:40.260

the farm crisis, and he said, well, why don't you draft it? And so I drafted it. I ran it by Mickey, and I sent it up to Senator Grassley, and to my great surprise, he just introduced it as I sent it up there

00:29:40.680 - 00:30:09.280

and it passed the Senate. But the house had a different version. Congressman Mike Steiner wanted to allow family farmers to use chapter 13. And he was being advised by Keith London, who was a bankruptcy judge from Nashville. Well, for the next I don't know,

00:30:09.520 - 00:30:35.560

almost a year. We worked on Trying to resolve the differences between those two bills and eventually we did and became chapter 12. OK, so it goes up to the Senate. Senate introduces it. The House thinks they want to tweak it a little

00:30:35.560 - 00:30:58.609

bit, and did they ever merge the two, or was one predominantly more adopted than the other? Well, it really contained elements of both, and it was pretty much based on chapter 13, and putting it on the fast track and having

00:30:58.609 - 00:31:24.800

a standing trustee to monitor these cases. But the two bills were resolved in a conference. Well, we were fortunate to have Senator Grassley, riding herd on this because his state is very agrarian, and

00:31:24.920 - 00:31:40.599

I think he has some sincere concern for the people and the farmers there in Iowa. There's a lot of people that disagree with him on other things, at least for that chapter 12 book, he was a champion. And pushing that

00:31:40.599 - 00:32:02.150

along even though it didn't get all of his bill passed, and his chief aid was Sam Giordano, who of course became the director of the ABI. OK. You also got involved in creating and

00:32:02.150 - 00:32:29.150

drafting sub 5 of Chapter 11. Weren't you involved in that? Right, well, ever since chapter 12, I thought that there really needed to be a chapter for small businesses, similar to chapter 12. If family farmers could be reorganized

00:32:29.150 - 00:32:47.920

on a fast track, it seemed to me that small businesses should be able to be reorganized on a fast track also because some of the small businesses were less complicated than the family farmer operation. And so what did you do

00:32:47.920 - 00:33:12.140

then? Well, this is kind of interesting. I was testifying on behalf of the National Bankruptcy Conference on a usury issue at a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing. After which I was talking to the chair of that subcommittee and Senator Whitehouse, and

00:33:12.140 - 00:33:36.410

he asked me what I thought could be done to improve the bankruptcy law. And of course, I've been pushing for a small business relief for years and so that's what I told them and what resulted was a National Bankruptcy conference committee

00:33:36.949 - 00:34:09.139

to look into the small business issue and I chaired that committee along with Ed Morrison, who is a professor at Columbia Law School. Senator Whitehouse, we drafted a bill. Senator White House introduced it in 2010. It had no Republican support. It

00:34:09.139 - 00:34:39.949

went nowhere, never got out of committee. And then about 8 years later, the ABI had a commission that sort of shined the spotlight on the small business problem. And Senator Grassley got involved. And basically introduced the bill that NBC had drafted and

00:34:41.050 - 00:35:06.090

Senator Whitehouse had introduced 8 years before and now with bipartisan support it passed the House and the Senate and became law just in time for COVID. Yeah, and I remember those days too. There was a higher threshold for being eligible

00:35:06.090 - 00:35:29.320

for a sub, I think it was like $7500 and then that got trimmed down to $2500 and ratcheted up $1 or two, and now there's legislation that's pending to put it back up to $750. Well, our recommended was $7,500,000 but to get it passed there

00:35:29.320 - 00:35:56.840

was creditor opposition and the threshold was reduced down to $2,500,000. COVID came along and on an emergency basis, they increased the number to $7,500,000. Now it's back down to the lower level and hopefully, it'll get increased again because it's much lower

00:35:57.419 - 00:36:20.070

than the threshold now for chapter 12. Yeah, your friend of mine, Mike Romero tramped over the hills a number of times talking to our colleagues, educating and informing them of the beauties of Sub-5, and I think Mike one time

00:36:20.070 - 00:36:36.679

says, well, you ought to put it up to 10 million. But that's gonna take a while before that'll soak in and get some creditor - right, but even at 10 million, it's still lower than what it is for chapter 12. Yeah, so anyway, it's interesting

00:36:36.679 - 00:36:57.030

to see the ebb and flow of the politics that goes on to get these things done. We have to be patient. And as part of your illustrious career, you also served on the Federal Judicial Center board. What is the federal judicial center and what did

00:36:57.030 - 00:37:19.620

you do on it? Well, the Federal Judicial Center provides all sorts of research and educational programs for judges around the country and being on the board was just a wonderful experience. We met maybe 3 times a year, although I

00:37:19.620 - 00:37:39.449

think the statute says you're supposed to meet 4 times a year. We either met at the Supreme Court or we met out in Arizona where the Chief Justice was teaching a law school class at the University of Arizona and also playing tennis. We

00:37:39.449 - 00:38:00.760

did a number of things while I was on that board. We elected a new director, Fern Smith. I remember there was a nasty turf battle at the time between the director of the AO and the director of the Federal Judicial Center. Which,

00:38:00.780 - 00:38:25.639

finally resulted in a truce, relations then got better, and I think that they're pretty good today. I know also when I was on the board, the FJC director wanted to promote the Federal Judicial Television Network. I got involved in that process. And I

00:38:25.639 - 00:38:48.580

don't think the network exists today, but back then it was pretty active and we did a lot of educational programs. I think I moderated 16 live programs on the Fourth Circuit. Cases each year and maybe about 5 or 6 other ones involving mental

00:38:48.580 - 00:39:08.050

illness and BAPCPA and subchapter 5 and chapter 12. That's a lot of work, Tom, bet you got tired doing all this stuff. That was a lot of fun, yeah, I bet it was. Now, as part of your responsibilities, you helped

00:39:08.100 - 00:39:24.689

Russia break up out of the Dark Ages, didn't you? Well, I don't know if I helped them a whole lot, but I did go to Russia twice. They were interested in

00:39:24.699 - 00:39:51.129

Farm reorganizations and I guess knowing about my involvement with Chapter 12, they asked me to come speak to them and they seem very interested in In the concepts, but not very interested in being willing to forgive debt or write down debt, write

00:39:51.129 - 00:40:05.350

down mortgages. So, I don't know how successful it was. I enjoyed my time there though - and I'll bet you did. They said they seemed interested, but not very willing. Did you get outside Moscow or go to some other places? Yes, I did.

00:40:05.449 - 00:40:24.419

I went to several cities and got to see some of their farms which they thought were pretty high tech but really sort of pale by comparison to some of our farms. Now who sponsored you going over? Was that a Russian entity or something?

00:40:24.540 - 00:40:53.199

Well, it was an international group called ACDI VOCA, which basically helped underdeveloped countries with their farming operations, but they also, offered to help them with their farm reorganizations. Oh, great. Tom What kind of counsel would you give our members of the

00:40:53.199 - 00:41:16.989

NCBJ today? Well, I think I was very fortunate because I had a lot of different opportunities to serve in different capacities other than my just judicial duties. And I would say if you have those opportunities, if they should come to you and FJC board

00:41:16.989 - 00:41:37.520

or the Rules Committee or any committee of the judicial conference or any committee of NCBJ. If they come along, take those opportunities cause you'll be certainly glad you did. I think you know, being a bankruptcy judge, is the best

00:41:37.520 - 00:41:59.889

kind of judge. As I said, they're, they're very collegial. They're the lovers of the judiciary. They work things out. I tell law students, you know, you really ought to consider a career in bankruptcy because they are the lovers. The

00:41:59.889 - 00:42:15.550

litigators are fighting all the time, but the bankruptcy practitioners, they try to work everything out. At least they did in my district, and I'm sure that's true in yours, as well, Bill. Yeah, I think so. I, I haven't been as involved as

00:42:15.550 - 00:42:30.770

you have been, but I've had some really interesting, interesting experiences with the NCBJ and some of these other committees, and if they're there, you just throw your hat in a ring and ask to serve, and someone will knock on your door. I think that's great advice.

00:42:31.699 - 00:42:47.810

Right. Tom, I appreciate you spending some time with me this afternoon. Well, I'm glad to have done it. I would say to all the bankruptcy judges, you know, I've really loved being a bankruptcy judge and just feel fortunate to have

00:42:47.810 - 00:43:04.909

had that opportunity. Well, you're great. Well, the best to you and your bride. Be safe. Are you gonna go to San Diego for that convention? I probably will not. Yeah, OK, well, if you do, you may kick the tires with you.

00:43:05.689 - 00:43:14.459

Thanks, Tom, and I hope I can save this correctly and then we'll get it shipped off to the Biddle library. Thanks Excellent. OK, thank you, Bill. OK, bye-bye.