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Well, hello. I'm honored to be here today with retired bankruptcy Judge Bob Nugent. Thank you so much, Judge Nugent, for joining us today and agreeing to be interviewed in celebration of the 100th anniversary of the NCBJ. Well, it's, it's a pleasure to be here, Laurel. Well,

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thank you, Judge Isikoff. You, you, which, which should I call you? Well, you can call me Laurel or Judge Isicoff. Let's, let's agree that I'm gonna call you Bob and you're gonna call me Laurel. How's that? I'm, I'm good with that. There you go, but

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for those of you who are watching, who are not judges, you still need to address us as Judge Nugent and Judge Isicoff, if you see us. OK, so, let's talk about, before we go back to your original origin story, why don't you tell us, Bob,

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what district you served in before you retired? I sat in the District of Kansas, primarily in Wichita, Kansas, where I lived and still live, and I also served on the 10th Circuit Bankruptcy Appellate panel, and we sat wherever we needed to sit. OK.

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Well, we'll go into a little bit more of the detail of that in a minute. Where are you from originally, Judge Nugent? I was born in Topeka, Kansas, and shortly after that, my parents made their way across the United States to, Southeastern Pennsylvania, which

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is where I grew up in the suburbs of Philadelphia. My, my mother grew up in northeastern Pennsylvania and my father in Kansas City, and they met in the Navy during the Korean conflict. They both worked at a naval hospital in New York City. So, we

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wound up growing up outside of Philadelphia in a place called Roslyn, Pennsylvania. All right, but somehow you made it back, back to Wichita, Kansas. So, did you go there before you became a lawyer or after you became a lawyer? After I became a lawyer, my,

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my father, being a Kansas Citian, always whispered in my ear about attending the University of Kansas. I think he wished he had, so I got to instead, and I stayed there for law school. My first job was in a small community about 50 miles

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north of here, Hutchinson, Kansas, a town of about, at that time, maybe 40,000 people and 100 lawyers, give or take. Where I got to do all kinds of things, mostly become a country lawyer, and after 7 years of that, I wound up down here

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in Wichita. So, so, what, what was the nature of your practice? Were you always a bankruptcy lawyer even when you were in Hutchinson, or how did that, how did that develop? I worked for a firm in Hutchinson that represented a number of banks, a number of

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country banks. In those days in Kansas, only one. Each bank holding company could only own one bank. And I think at one time there were 650 or 700 individual banks in our state. But my firm represented a guy who owned a bunch of banks

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in western Kansas, and they were primarily ag and oil and gas lenders. So when the mid-80s came and the farm and oil and gas crisis came to the Midwest, they needed somebody who, somebody to learn and, and work on these cases. And as the

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most recent law school graduate in my law firm, I got the prize for that. I can still remember the partner walking this guy down the hall, telling him that Mr. Nugent is our expert in bankruptcy law, which was kind of a stretch. But I

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got to represent lenders, I got to represent some farmers. I think I confirmed one of the very first chapter 12s in Kansas in '85 or '86 and kind of learned bankruptcy on the job, basically from my opponents as I practiced and about

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1986 or so, I was appointed a chapter seven panel trustee, which is a really fast, a really fast track and a really good way to learn the bankruptcy business. I moved to Wichita in 1987 to join a much larger law firm

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and did basically the same kind of work. So, so the, so at least now we know how you got into bankruptcy, although, as you know, some of our colleagues actually didn't know anything about bankruptcy before they went on the bench, but all became really

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incredibly good bankruptcy judges. So when did you become a bankruptcy judge? I became a bankruptcy judge in June of 2000. OK. And so how long had you been practicing at that point? So that would have been my 20th year in practice. And then how long

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were you on the bench? I was on the bench for basically 20 years on the nose. All right, so now you're in the next, you're in the next trifecta or something trimester, I guess it is. OK, so, so when were you, NCBJ president?

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I was NCBJ president in 2014 and 2015 that year. OK, so you did a little bit of bankruptcy judging before you, got into leadership, and we'll, and we'll circle back to your, your NCBJ involvement in a little bit. So, let me

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ask you something. How, in terms of your career path to get to the bench, is there anything that you believe you wanna highlight other than, for example, a path that many of us got into is we sort of got sucked into bankruptcy because we

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had a client that was involved in a bankruptcy case, and, and becoming a panel trustee. Would you say there was anything else that contributed to your path to the bench? I found that I enjoyed the problem solving aspect of being a lawyer, perhaps

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more than anything. And, you know, practicing in a small town and even practicing in Wichita, which I know to many of our viewers is probably a small town of 350,000 people, it's hard to make a living just being a bankruptcy lawyer. I, so

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I, I did real estate work, I did foreclosure work, I did some commercial trial work, some, you know, buying and selling businesses. I felt like when the opportunity presented itself when my predecessor unexpectedly retired that I probably had a skill set that I

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could bring to it, not only because I did bankruptcy work, but because I understood a lot of other, worked in a lot of other disciplines that kind of feed to bankruptcy. Clearly, I know that when I, because I also did real estate before I

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went on the bench and sometimes lawyers try to trick me. I don't know if that ever happened to you, you know, assuming that you don't know something, and then you sort of tell them, well, I kind of sort of know how to, what that means, and

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then they back off. So did you have that experience? I did, and I recall telling some young lawyer that we were arguing about some real estate title case, and I asked him how many abstracts he had ever examined because I had examined quite a

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few out there in the country. Yeah, yeah, and he knew his first question was, what's an abstract? What's an abstract? That's exactly right. So why, why did you decide to become a judge? You know, I had it in the back of my mind, probably. Around

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the time I got into my 40s. I did not always care for my work as a litigator, but I liked appearing in court. You know, I practiced in front of some judges. I really, both state and federal, who I really admired. And I always

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thought that's a really great way to be a lawyer. It's a great way to help other lawyers and, and help other people. I really didn't think it would happen for me to become a bankruptcy judge because my predecessor was not a heck of a lot

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older than me, but owing to some health problems, he announced his retirement in 1999. And I felt like that was an opportunity that I couldn't pass up. Even though I was only 45 and my practice was, I think, on the upswing, I judged

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that it would be my last chance to get a judgeship here. I wasn't that interested in moving my family for a judgeship. And so I took a crack at it. Well, and obviously you succeeded. Well, and I was very lucky to be successful in

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that because as I recall, the circuit had winnowed it down to 5 of us. All 5 of us had practiced extensively in this division and all over Kansas and some in Kansas City, Missouri. And, you know, we were 5 of the lawyers in Wichita

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that you went to if you had a financial problem. So I, was astonished when they called me. Well, I know, I know you as a very humble person, but I, had I known you then I wouldn't have been astonished based on

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what I know about you now. So, let's move on to when you were a bankruptcy judge other than the lawyer who didn't know what an abstract was. So, what was your caseload like? What is, what, what was the nature of the cases that you

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heard as a bankruptcy judge and did that change over the 20 years that you were sitting? It did not change by proportion, but the volume, as you know, Laurel, changed remarkably. When I came on in 2000, I probably had 3 or 4000 cases that I

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was responsible for. In those days, we'd have a 20,000 case filing year was not particularly unusual in Kansas, which is pretty surprising when you think about really how few people live here, 1.5 million maybe. I would say that 90 to 95%, and that's

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a round number of those cases were consumer cases. In my division. Largely because of attitudes of judges prior to me. My division was kind of a chapter 7 heavy division. We had a substantial Chapter 13 docket, but Chapter 7 was kind of a

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case of choice, at least until BAPCPA came along in 2005. The 2005 really changed the playing field. I mean I remember coming to work and I was very, very busy. Although I wanna stress that I was never as busy on the bench

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as I was practicing law. I think you'll agree that I used to listen to some of our colleagues talk about how hard they were working. I would think, you must have had a really easy job at the law firm I never worked, I

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never felt like I was as pressed, as I had been in practice. But anyway, when the law changed in 2005, it was like somebody turned the lights out. You know, we suddenly had no cases. I used to kid people that there were more

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holes in one in the paper than there were bankruptcy filings. And by the end of my tenure, we were lucky to get to maybe 1500 weighted cases. In fact, I understand from my colleagues who are still there that only now have they got to

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the point where they, could expect to be succeeded were they to retire. And in fact, my colleague, Judge Jan Karlin retired in 2018, and they did not succeed her. So, I mean that to me, that's pretty vivid. Now, do we still have

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consumer cases? Yeah, I mean, primarily that's what we had. It seemed to me that we had a lot more pro se activity after BAPCPA. We never had a ton of chapter 11s, and those that we had were typically not particularly complex. There's a

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couple I could tell you about. I mean, I only ever had one case that was a billion dollars, and that was the very last year of my career. A lot of what we had were liquidators. We did not have subchapter 5 in those

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days. We had what they call Small Business chapter 11. We had a lot of 12s because probably in the 20 years I was on the bench, we had several farm dips, as you know, a lot of drought over the past 15 years or so

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here in, in the Midwest. But it, it did change and, and it changed, and of course it dramatically changed in the spring of 2020. I mean, I was headed out the door in June, but you know, when, when COVID descended on us, and no

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one would come to the courthouse or could come to the courthouse or use that as a convenient excuse not to come to the courthouse, it, it really kind of changed the nature of the work a lot. Yeah, and, and like you said, you left in

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June, so you didn't get the full breadth, but of course you observed it. I mean, it was pretty crazy then, yeah, pretty crazy times, and, and honestly, I mean, I've told people now for 6 years, that I retired into COVID and that. Frankly, that was

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OK with me because it wasn't much of a transition. It wasn't like I went from 60 miles an hour to a hard stop. It felt like going from like 9 to 8 miles an hour, very, very different thing. Yes, it was a very different, very different,

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very different thing, says she who was president at the time of the NCBJ, so. What was your, what was your, like what did you like about being a bankruptcy judge other than what you just described about the fact that, yeah, even when you were super

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busy, it's just not the same as when you were practicing law, but what else? I don't wanna make it sound like I was happy to get out of work because I, I loved to work and I find I still like to work, although I certainly don't

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work very much. I really liked having the independence and the agency that you have as a judge. Kind of had my own shop. And particularly as a bankruptcy judge where your court is the court, you don't really answer to anyone except on appeal.

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I really enjoyed the lawyer contact. I spent a lot of time with lawyers. I loved being in court. I'd love to docket day because I always thought about how much I had learned going to docket day, all those years and watching good lawyers perform. And

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also watching not such good lawyers perform and watching how my predecessor dealt with that, sometimes well, sometimes not with the degree of patience you would hope to have. I love the idea that you would have the time to really master a case, to hear

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the evidence, to study the law. You're not on a deadline. I imposed a deadline on myself, of course, to get things out, but many cases were not emergent. You had time to decide it. I enjoyed helping people solve their problems. Uh, I, I really

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like to think of myself as one of the two kinds of lawyers, and I think there are two kinds of lawyers. There's complicators and simplifiers. And I always tried hard to be a simplifier, and I think there's really a role for that, on the

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bench to help other, help other advocates become simplifiers and really get to the bottom of what's the real problem. One of my favorite things about being a judge that I never had time to enjoy as a lawyer was getting to write. Yeah, and, and, and,

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and you know, when you suddenly realize that being a, being an excellent writer is your job now. And really start to apply yourself. I missed that. I don't have many opportunities to write much of anything, but I loved writing and reading.

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You know, the only thing I didn't, the only thing that wore on me as a bankruptcy judge were some of the administrative burdens, that I'm sure you're familiar with, lots and lots of meetings. But looking back, there wasn't anything about being a bankruptcy

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judge that I didn't like. I mean, I, I drove down Central Avenue every morning thinking, boy, this is, what a deal. I can't wait to get there. Yeah, it's the, many, many of our colleagues have described it as the greatest job ever, so, and I

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don't disagree with that. So what, what do you think was your biggest challenge or biggest challenges while you were on the bench, if any? I think these and probably not. Probably not an exclusive list, more of an inclusive list. I was, I had been

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a judge for maybe 2 years, and my 3 colleagues, were senior to me. My immediately senior colleague, Judge Julie Robinson was elevated to the district court about a year after I took office. And Julie and I are contemporaries. We were law

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school classmates. Or at least in law school at the same time, my other two senior colleagues, Judge John Flannagan and Judge Jim Pusateri, who I think is still alive and living in Florida, were considerably older than me, and they had been on the

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bench for a long time, and they retired almost immediately, 2002, I think, so I became the chief. The tradition here is that the senior bankruptcy judge becomes the chief. And I was told at that time that I would serve for a term of 7 years

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coterminous with the chief district judge. And at the end of that 7 years, I showed up at the district court annual meeting and the new, the new chief's district judge said, you're doing such a great job. We're gonna reappoint you. I used to kid people

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that I was the only bankruptcy judge with a life tenure as the chief judge. But I found that to be, it was challenging. It was challenging because my elder predecessors, I think, were pretty caught up in the more adversary relationship that some bankruptcy courts

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have with their district court colleagues. We worked really hard to further a respectful and collegial, but at the same time separate, relationship with the district court, and I think we made a lot of inroads on that. I felt like we were included

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and listened to and cooperated with as much as we could. I mean, there's always, as you know, some pressure out there to consolidate our clerk's offices, which I'm looking at my notes here, I think I use the word red line. That's a red line

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for a bankruptcy judge that you should never have to cross. You know, I had, I, I think being a chief judge is kind of an interesting challenge because it's not. First of all, you don't really have any power. Right, exactly, but you got a lot of

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responsibility, yeah, yeah, yeah, and, and no, no means to back it up. The only power that you do have, unfortunately I had to exercise, and that involved changing a clerk of court, and that's. I wish I hadn't had to do that. I mean, and

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that, that is, looking back, that's not a pleasant memory. I'm not bragging about that. I, I feel terrible about that 10 years later, 20 years later, but, budget, budget was, seemed to be always an issue almost immediately after I took office, we were in the

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cost containment mode on and on every year. Electronic filing came to Kansas, I think in 03. And became mandatory, and that entailed a lot of sort of administrative challenges trying to get the lawyers to be, to take it up and qualify to do

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it. And an interesting kind of unintended consequence of electronic filing, at least out here was in the old days you could be a country lawyer in Garden City and file 10 bankruptcies a year on those, on those, what do they call them, carbon sets you

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probably absolutely I remember, but once you had to buy a computer and take the test and, and you know, a lot of those people fell away, so we kind of lost, an interesting, sort of diverse piece of our bar. But, you know, we

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adjusted to that, and of course 2005, we had to kind of learn our business all over again, particularly on the consumer side and, and that was challenging. So yeah, we had space concerns, we had lots of meetings, but again, looking back, I'm sure

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a lot of people have harder jobs than I had. At the end of my, when I got to the end of the 13th year, I went to the then Chief district judge and I said, you know, enough's enough. And, again, Judge Karlin, who,

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is probably one of the most capable people I've ever been around, had waited patiently, and I think she wanted to do it. She was terrific. I think she was kind of bummed she didn't get to do it seven years sooner, but

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she did have the opportunity to do that before she retired, so I was glad that that happened. For so many reasons. Well, I, I, I will tell you, yes, being chief judge, it was, is challenging and rewarding and all of those things. Again, I was chief

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judge during COVID as well, so, oh boy. Anyway, so one last question about your tenure on the bench before we morph into the NCBJ conversation. Do you have a favorite case? You know, I have two cases that stick in my mind having had a

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chance to review these questions in advance, I thought about that. I mean, I had a lot of sort of interesting characters appear in front of me, which is the nature of bankruptcy, including the, um, Moorish nationals who threatened to have me kidnapped by the

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Moorish National Police, whatever or whoever they are, they got indicted for that and the jury was hung. So I don't know how good a judge I was, but apparently I wasn't a very good witness. But looking back, the two cases that really stick in my

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mind, I had a business case out here called Abengoa Biofuels, and Abengoa is a big state-sponsored Spanish conglomerate in the alternative fuels industry and I think in 2017, 2018, thereabouts huge Chapter 15 case in Wilmington and Madrid, and this was a little piece

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of this entity, a separate corporation that had built an experimental plant that would generate biofuel from Agricultural waste and hay and whatnot. And it was involuntary to me because they didn't pay any of the contractors, and it was about a billion dollars in

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debt. UNearly all the petitioning creditors were Kansans. And of course the, the main debtor petitioned to have this transferred back to Wilmington. Judge Carey, our good friend, the late Judge Carey, was the presiding judge, and I'd been to Baby Judge's school with, with him,

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and I remember I emailed him and I said, you know, I, can I talk to you about this, not. A little ex parte, just a little bit, you know, do you think that, do you, is it gonna inconvenience you if I retain this case? And I

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remember that he, he wrote back or called and said, you know, my cases are just like your cases. I just have a lot more zeros. I won't miss it for a minute. You wanna keep it? If, if you find it should be kept in Kansas,

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then keep it, and I kept it. And it was a really interesting, we, we wound up selling the plant at auction for not nearly what the debt was against it. But, you know, I had many lawyer, you know, New York lawyers, Saint Louis lawyers,

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and it was interesting to see those lawyers in my courtroom in Wichita, with a lawyer from Moscow, Kansas, which is a town probably about as big as two of the blocks in your neighborhood, and just to see that wide contrast of people and approach

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and attitudes, and I actually think that the tall building lawyers liked coming to Wichita. They, they were kind of a unique thing. People would come to see them, but it was just a fascinating case. A lot of issues, a lot of commercial issues,

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and I was fortunate to get that done before I stepped down. I had an individual case that I have never forgotten about. It's a case called Mr. Krauss. And this, Mr. Krauss was a law-trained entrepreneur. Hated the IRS. And he filed a chapter 7

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right before October 7th, 2005. I'll never understand why he did that. He had a tax claim that had grown from maybe $100,000 to $3 or $4 million with penalties and interest over a 20 or 30 year period. He had probably the most Byzantine asset planning

00:27:42.540 - 00:27:58.579

scheme I've ever seen, and it was, I had several trials. He destroyed all his hard drives, so I had a had to have a spoliation trial. I had to strike a number of his claims and enter judgment against him. I think I wrote

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an opinion that was 100, 150 pages long about all of his frauds, and he was ultimately indicted for bankruptcy fraud. And then, of course, like all good debtors of that ilk, he went to Switzerland. No, wow. You know, I had his passport. How he got there,

00:28:17.260 - 00:28:36.530

I'll never know. But, he passed away shortly after I retired. But what I remember about his case most vividly, his plan was, or his one of his asset planning techniques was that he lived in a house. One son owned the top floor, one son owned

00:28:36.530 - 00:28:51.020

the ground floor, and his ex-wife owned the basement, and he leased that from her. Wow, OK. And of course you know you were a judge in a big city. When you're a judge in a small town like me, you, you kind of run into these people

00:28:51.020 - 00:29:09.510

in day to day commerce, and it's a a little awkward, very interesting, interesting experience. Oh wow. Well. That is definitely memorable. I will say that individual cases do tend to give us our biggest memories for reasons like that, you know. I mean, I, I would tell

00:29:09.510 - 00:29:26.589

you one other one, and, and this is a good humility lesson for any judges who are watching this. Pretty early in my career. In my tenure, I had a chapter 7 debtor who was I don't know if he was a militia guy or a posse

00:29:26.589 - 00:29:50.359

comitatus guy. He filed a Chapter 7, but he didn't really believe in the government. And, I had a very contentious hearing with him. And I entered an order, denying him a discharge probably without sufficient record. He appealed that to the bankruptcy

00:29:50.359 - 00:30:14.550

appellate panel, and my, my colleagues on the appellate panel reversed me. And I remember thinking. You screwed up. I mean, that, that, that, that was a really valuable lesson to me about being a judge and protecting the record and, and remaining calm and patient and how

00:30:14.770 - 00:30:35.930

even the lowliest, craziest chapter seven debtor may have something that you need to listen to. Yeah, no, it's, that's a good point. It's an excellent point and it's one that I think all of us get challenged and need to remind ourselves because as badly

00:30:35.930 - 00:30:54.199

as we feel that what we're feeling is absolutely the right way. You're right, the record is the record and we have to, we have to do that. So, well, let's, let's switch now from your incredible career as a bankruptcy judge. Let's talk about the National Conference

00:30:54.199 - 00:31:13.640

of Bankruptcy Judges, the NCBJ. So, the first question I have for you is well, you said you, because you're a bankruptcy lawyer, maybe you had heard about the NCBJ. So, had you heard about the NCBJ? And if so, did you know that it was an organization

00:31:13.640 - 00:31:30.290

or did you just think it was an annual meeting? I knew that it was an organization when I became a trustee I made, I had got to be pretty good friends with the rest of the panel trustees in those days in Kansas there were

00:31:30.290 - 00:31:44.319

8 panel trustees. That's how, and, and we each got cases every 2 weeks to show you how busy we were back then. But one of them said, you know, you ought to go to the NCBJ. That's a great way to get all your CLE in one

00:31:44.319 - 00:32:05.660

shot, plus, you'll meet a ton of people. And, you know, if you're a Kansas lawyer, uh, a principal source of, um, Work for you, particularly as a business lawyer, is being local counsel for people like you, big city lawyers, and, and it

00:32:05.660 - 00:32:20.880

was just a great way to meet people. So I went, the first one I went to was in Nashville in 1985. I was thinking about this the other day. I was so broke, I had to room with somebody. Wow. But anyway, I caught the fever in

00:32:20.880 - 00:32:36.859

Nashville. I was so excited about all of that, and I probably attended 10 meetings before I was appointed. You know, I got to know, you get to know up close when you go to those meetings what a force in the bankruptcy world the NCBJ is,

00:32:37.260 - 00:32:53.569

not just the judges, so, you know. Since I have the curse of being a joiner, becoming a member was an easy one for me. All right, so how, how quickly did you become a member after you became a judge? Immediately, I was thinking

00:32:53.569 - 00:33:14.969

about, thinking the other day about the late Randy Dunn calling me in the summer of 2000 while I was awaiting my clearance to take my baby judge bio for the conference news. I would say too. My predecessor Judge John Pearson had been a very

00:33:14.969 - 00:33:31.650

active member. I think he had edited the newsletter. He may have been treasurer when he retired. I can't remember. And his predecessor, Judge Robert B. Morton, was the president of the NCBJ in 1980, and he was kind of a mover and shaker on our pensions

00:33:31.650 - 00:33:52.229

and salaries, the Judgeship Act back then, and he was involved, I think, to some degree in drafting the code. And even back further, we had a referee who was the president of the referees group in 1955 when I was born, referee

00:33:52.229 - 00:34:06.890

Edward Sloan. So, you know, there was just kind of a, there was a, the idea was that you wanna be, you wanna be a part of it. Judge Pusatieri, my chief judge, encouraged me to do it. He sat on the board. So

00:34:06.890 - 00:34:24.879

I was kind of, kind of steeped in that tradition, right? Well, so, you know, that's, it's wonderful that you had that, atmosphere to encourage your involvement, but did you get a mentor? Like, were you assigned a mentor or were there mentors within the NCBJ?

00:34:24.929 - 00:34:46.830

I'm not talking about your judicial mentors that helped you in becoming a better bankruptcy judge, but those within the organization that, once you joined, mentored you in, in that, in that side of your career. We didn't have a formal mentoring process at that time,

00:34:47.409 - 00:35:09.149

but I recall that, that being reached out to almost immediately, I think my first, committee involvement with NCBJ was being on the conference news staff. Your colleague Mike Williamson was the editor. We had been baby judge classmates. And

00:35:09.149 - 00:35:30.949

I succeeded him as the editor. Another person who is large in my memory in that way is Jeff Hopkins. Jeff and Liz Paris were my Baby Judge School teachers or leaders in 2000 and 2001. You know, Jeff reached out to me and encouraged

00:35:30.949 - 00:35:45.189

me to become a governor at large, which I think I became in 2006 or 2007, you know, but I, I could name a lot of people, you know, I think about Ray Mullins, I, and I was in Baby Judge's school at Ray, but I, Ray and

00:35:45.189 - 00:36:04.270

I talked a lot and talked a lot about how the organization should be run and where it should go, Jim Gregg, David Houston, Mark McFeely, Chuck Case. Joan Feeney. I spent a lot of time talking to Joan Feeney over the years. Nancy Dreyer,

00:36:04.290 - 00:36:24.889

Mary Walrath, and then out here in the sticks, my dear late friend Tom Cornish, who was such a character, but underneath that character, he was a very sharp organizational guy, and I just had a lot of people to, to draw on, which, you

00:36:24.889 - 00:36:42.040

know, Laurel, that is the best thing about the conference for judges. Absolutely no question. You know, I didn't even really know Tom Cornish that well, and yet when I was president, he reached out to me constantly. How are you doing? Is there anything I can do

00:36:42.040 - 00:36:58.290

for you? Are you OK, you know, before his untimely passing, but You know, just that, that kind of connection that you get, even if you don't know someone that well, that they're there to support you and even if it's just be a cheerleader. Dale Somers

00:36:58.290 - 00:37:15.860

used to send me emails. I had never met Dale Somers, but, and it's just, it's just really wonderful to have that. So, you came on, you were encouraged by your colleagues. You had all these folks there pulling for you and reaching out to you and

00:37:15.860 - 00:37:33.939

getting you involved. When you said you mentioned the conference news, so that was your first commitment, and then you get sucked in, you get drawn to the fire. So tell me about that journey and how, what offices, what committees you were on until you ultimately

00:37:33.939 - 00:37:51.479

got to the presidency. I think I edited the conference news 2003, 2004. I'm fuzzy on these dates. That's OK, but that's, and I, and you know, I looked for, I guess I could have pulled up a Vita, but I didn't, and

00:37:51.479 - 00:38:07.860

that was interesting work in those days. I remember Mike training me on this DOS program that you use to lay out the paper, and I would close my door for about a day and a half and do that and get those pictures from Margaret Murphy

00:38:07.860 - 00:38:23.139

and cut them and resize them and fit them in there and it was way above my pay grade, but it was challenging and fun work. I was on the board of governors as an at-large governor. I wanna say like '06 to '08 or '09. I

00:38:23.139 - 00:38:44.969

was the secretary for a couple of years, succeeding Marcia Parsons, as I remember, I served on the Finance Committee. I don't remember the year that this churned up, but I was on the, special litigation committee, involving the beer litigation that, Judge

00:38:44.969 - 00:39:04.320

Houser so ably chaired for us. I get time off for purgatory for being the bylaws chair, I think, OK, because, you know, it's a lot of work. That's some arcane stuff, and I recall that we had a few sort of semi-controversial things.

00:39:04.439 - 00:39:24.100

Mostly having to do with conflicts of interest at that time we were very concerned about this organization or that fellow organization having too much influence over us as judges, and there were some fairly spirited discussions about that. I served on the cost containment task force,

00:39:24.919 - 00:39:43.310

and I think I chaired that for a year. But about the time. I think I was done with being secretary and that was when I kind of got on the track to become president. I think I was, chosen to be the president-elect in

00:39:43.320 - 00:40:09.500

2012, the end of 2012, yeah, so you get the elect elect and then the elect, right. OK, so, you became. Well, before we get to the president, we were talking about the benefits of the NCBJ in terms of that tremendous friend group and tremendous support

00:40:09.500 - 00:40:29.360

group that, that you inherit. What, and, and then you also mentioned the Hauser litigation, the cost containment. So what, and if you were. If you were talking to a new bankruptcy judge today and you wanted to try to get him or her involved with the

00:40:29.360 - 00:40:43.229

NCBJ, what would be your, oh, I'm trying to use a baseball analogy. I just went to a baseball game yesterday, so I should really be able to, I'm trying to channel my best because I know a bunch of you go to baseball games as a group,

00:40:44.239 - 00:41:08.260

even retirement. I know what my out pitch would be, yeah, right. What would your out pitch be? There you go. It's being a judge intrinsically is a lonely thing, and you have your family, you have your friends, you have your non-lawyer social circuit. But it

00:41:08.260 - 00:41:25.959

professionally, it's a lonely thing, and I think being a bankruptcy judge is a particularly lonely thing because. What's worse than being at a cocktail party and somebody says, well, what do you do anyway? Yeah, that's kind of hard to explain, and it's really not all that

00:41:25.959 - 00:41:43.489

interesting. To a lot of people, but what I would say to people is that it is a lonely thing. It's important to have this connection with your colleagues all over the country. I mean, what, there are only 350 authorized positions, only maybe 400 of us

00:41:43.489 - 00:42:02.550

in service at this point. Now, you know, the hard pitch, the brushback pitch is, if you enjoy getting a paycheck. And you like wearing a robe to work, and you like people to call you judge, none of those things would exist but for us and

00:42:02.550 - 00:42:20.580

the referees, goup prior to us, you know, they got us those things and they helped us keep those things. But to me, even more important than that, was just all the people I met. I mean, what I know you, Where, where would our

00:42:20.580 - 00:42:37.840

paths have ever crossed? Exactly? There's no, I, I may be, I may be new 10 judges outside of the Kansas, Missouri, Oklahoma area. I had been local counsel for a couple of them. but, but you just, it, it, it made my world so much

00:42:37.840 - 00:42:57.389

bigger. And, and the people are so interesting and come from so many different professional backgrounds and have so many different interests. I just can't imagine. I understand some people are shy, some people aren't joiners, but boy, at least put your toe in the water and

00:42:57.389 - 00:43:11.510

try it. Yeah, it surprises me now when I see a name and I think, I don't think this person's a member of the NCBJ. How is, how is that possible? So sometimes I reach out to them and just say, hey, you know,

00:43:11.570 - 00:43:26.739

I just want to share this with you. But anyway, so let's go back to you and the NCBJ. So you became the president, and as we know, one of the things as president is you get to preside over the annual meeting at the end of your

00:43:27.370 - 00:43:50.149

tenure. So where was your annual meeting? Our annual meeting in 2015 was at the Fontainebleau in Miami Beach. And that was a really interesting experience. Why don't you tell us a few of the things that made it interesting? So, besides the fact that it

00:43:50.149 - 00:44:06.110

was hot. Well, I remember that it was kind of hot and humid, but you, you, you know that at least in those days we booked those meetings out, 6,7, 8, 10 years in advance. And I, and I remember at the time thinking that I may have been

00:44:06.110 - 00:44:27.669

on the board when we voted to have that meeting. Way beyond, but we, we did have some, we had some, some difficulties, largely because the Fontainebleau had changed hands a couple of times in the intervening period. And dealing with, so we were dealing

00:44:27.669 - 00:44:43.120

with people we had not signed a contract with, the people we didn't know, and by then Gene Sleeper had come on board and succeeded Chris Molick, so we had a new executive director. So you know, they had new people, we had new people. You know,

00:44:43.199 - 00:44:58.580

I remember there were many issues with the contract. I was looking at I had a whole sub file in my in my Word files about this and I kind of walked through it the other day getting ready for this and brought a lot

00:44:58.580 - 00:45:15.939

of things back. One of the issues that I remember was really, shocking was that there was a fabulous suite on top of one of the towers, and it was like a 10,000 square foot suite, and boy, we were excited about that being the presidential

00:45:15.939 - 00:45:31.439

suite. Unfortunately, they sold that to someone. That's right, they sold it. Not that, not that we didn't get a pretty good room. We, the management was tough to deal with. Jean, on the other hand, was fabulous to deal with, and Jean, as you know, is a

00:45:31.439 - 00:45:47.810

tough lady. She is, she's really good at the table, and we were able to mount what I think ultimately was financially successful and a rewarding meeting, even though we were kind of worried about it. And I think there were, I think there were a

00:45:47.810 - 00:46:04.409

lot of people who didn't think that the lawyers would want to come to the Fontainebleau because it's old and because Miami Beach, I guess, has the reputation of being expensive. But looking back, I don't remember the numbers well, but I felt like we had a

00:46:04.409 - 00:46:23.810

pretty successful showing. I remember that Linda and I had a beautiful suite that we could watch the sun set over Biscayne Bay every day. It was, it was awesome. I would mention, it's only fair to mention that you were a big part of helping

00:46:23.810 - 00:46:41.370

us navigate the ground in Miami, and there was a member of your bar down there, uh, Paul Singerman, who I recall was very helpful to me and sort of greasing the skids with us in the Fontainebleau and, you know, it came out pretty well. Yeah,

00:46:41.449 - 00:46:53.129

I thought it was a great conference, and, yeah, once we got past the room issue, I, what I'm remembering is there was a lot of mirrors in the room that we ultimately were able to, it was a suite. The other, the other thing they offered

00:46:53.129 - 00:47:07.610

us was just a room, but it's like, no, I don't really think we can have this here. But yeah, it was, it was pretty nice, and Paul continues to be very, very helpful. So, and, as we know, yes, the NCBJ is a great social

00:47:07.610 - 00:47:23.070

time. And what goes on in the president's suite, we will not talk about in detail here because there will be non-judges watching this video, but let's just say it's nothing illegal, it's a good time. But we also, of course, as you had mentioned before,

00:47:23.520 - 00:47:37.290

when your chief judge had said, or I'm sorry, you said when you were practicing that you could get all your CLE at one time, that education is a huge part of our annual meeting. And in fact, while there may be a lot of other entities

00:47:37.290 - 00:47:59.310

now like the ABA and the ABI that that put on these conferences with education, we were the first. So who was your education chair? Thankfully, it was Mary Walrath. My, I think Ray Mullins was the president. He wasn't right before me, maybe 2 before

00:47:59.310 - 00:48:17.110

me, and he told me, he said, Bob. You gotta make one big decision, and if you guess right, it'll be terrific, and if you guess wrong. Look out, and I'm so grateful to Mary for taking that on because it's a huge job. Oh, it, it

00:48:17.110 - 00:48:33.790

is, yeah, and I had never even been on the Education Committee. So, in fact, was never on the Education Committee, but planning that with her was really fascinating. Yeah, and she's, she's just an awesome person anyway, so funny, down to earth. People, I mean, I'm

00:48:33.790 - 00:48:46.510

sure the people that appear before don't feel that she's funny, but she really is very funny, you know, you know, we Philadelphia people, we, we, we bring a lot to the party. I, I really got to, that, that's one of the, one of my great enduring

00:48:46.510 - 00:49:05.330

friendships from being a judge. Yeah, she's she's special. It's, so is, was there any particular education program that stands out to you from your meeting? You know, we had a couple that I thought were really successful. We had a wonderful circuit splits

00:49:05.330 - 00:49:26.550

panel, with Craig Goldblatt. I think he moderated that, and Judge Julie Robinson and Judge Bernice Donald and Judge Marjorie Rendell appeared at that, and that's kind of an all-star cast. Absolutely a quaint thing 12 years ago we had a seminar about ethics in social

00:49:26.550 - 00:49:48.340

media. Because apparently we thought that'd be a problem. Laurel, can't, can't understand why you think that. Pretty, pretty cutting edge stuff. And A ABLJ did a deal. They did a symposium called BAPCPA at 10 that, as I recall, was really well attended and, what

00:49:48.340 - 00:50:08.449

and formed the framework for a couple of issues of the ABLJ that year and, and really, really valuable stuff. Right, and for those of you who are living under a rock, ABLJ is the American Bankruptcy Law Journal, correct? And that's an NCBJ, I would

00:50:08.449 - 00:50:30.370

say publication, but now we are completely electronic, so it's, and they put on a symposium now every other year. So, so. As with any entity. As with any entity, something always comes up. So were there any governance issues or any other issues that

00:50:30.370 - 00:50:49.080

you felt were particularly challenging the year of your presidency? Yeah, just, I mean, and, and many of them. Nothing, nothing terribly negative. It was Jean's first year. I think it was her first full-on year. I think she had sort of co-opt the job, with

00:50:49.080 - 00:51:06.770

Chris Molick the year before when, Gene Wedoff was the president. One of the things she did that I thought was terrific was she really modernized the way, we reported our finances, as I alluded to earlier, she was really good at negotiating with our

00:51:06.770 - 00:51:28.129

providers, as good as any lawyer could have been in that situation. Not a governance issue per se, but I remember that the executive committee spent a lot of time. communicating with members and one another about the finishing of the Houser litigation claims process, which was

00:51:28.719 - 00:51:48.469

very, was really pretty complicated, particularly in terms of distribution of settlement funds to judges who had retired, surviving spouses, dealing with various deductions, what would be withheld, when the money would be paid. I mean, I think I was traveling to some meeting. I remember

00:51:48.469 - 00:52:05.979

getting an email from my bank, the largest deposit I ever received. But as a human, but, it was important to, to see that everybody got what they had coming. And, and I think It was really important to, to be reaching out to the retired

00:52:05.979 - 00:52:21.219

judges and the spouses who, you know, maybe lose connection with the conference in a way that active people don't. A little a little cloud with a silver lining was that Pam Pepper became a district judge and I got to get a

00:52:21.219 - 00:52:44.179

terrific person to succeed her as the secretary. Mhm. That's you. And, and I've always been grateful to you for that because you have. You're really good with organizations. Well, thank you. I, I try, I tried hard. You were immeasurably helpful to me. Let's see

00:52:44.479 - 00:52:58.679

what else can I? Well, I wanna go back to the Houser litigation for a minute and again for those who may not be familiar because less and less people are. And that is that we, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that the bankruptcy judges

00:52:58.679 - 00:53:17.129

are supposedly entitled to a COLA adjustment every year, and yet Congress was withholding that adjustment for many, many years for all federal judges. Am I remembering that that was the issue? That, that was the issue, yeah. And and so when Judge Houser agreed to be the

00:53:17.790 - 00:53:34.199

Face of the face of the NCBJ for for purposes of the lawsuit. I think that was her, her specific role. She was the named plaintiff, right? She was a named plaintiff for bankruptcy judges as a class, right? And prior to her doing that, I think Tom

00:53:34.199 - 00:53:54.064

Cornish filed his action in the wake of the district, the Article 3 judges, one of whose name was Beer, and that's why we called it the Beer litigation, but the, the setup was bankruptcy judges are paid a percentage of what district judges are paid,

00:53:54.614 - 00:54:17.629

even though we do not have life tenure, our salaries theoretically should float up with their salary. Their theory was that being denied these cost of living adjustments, altered their compensation while in office, which is an express, expressly contrary to what Article 3 says.

00:54:18.070 - 00:54:33.520

You know, we didn't receive a decision on the merits, but we entered into a consent decree, and, and I might say, my involvement was being on the litigation committee. I was somewhat active in that the only credit I would ever take for this

00:54:33.520 - 00:54:50.750

would be that it paid out while I was president, and that was more of a, that was almost entirely a coincidence. Well, but you, as you said, you were. Heading up the effort to make sure that the retired judges and the widows and widowers because

00:54:50.750 - 00:55:13.629

again for those who are not because are now the beneficiaries of that litigation, our salary went up in one huge leap. And also many of us based on how many years we've been judges under this failure to increase also got lump sum deposits again depending on

00:55:13.629 - 00:55:29.510

how long they've been a judge. So obviously what you received was greater than I because I didn't go on the bench till 2006. But again, to underscore the role of the National Conference of Bankruptcy Judges and making sure that the bankruptcy judges were at the table

00:55:29.820 - 00:55:50.929

when this litigation was initiated by the Article 3 judges because it impacted both the Article 3 and as you said, the Article 1s and not the first time that some entities have taken the position that Because we are not life tenure, that there's some differentiation, and

00:55:50.929 - 00:56:15.129

the NCBJ as usual, stepped up and said, no, no, no, no, no. So, well, and, and you know, to point up, Laurel, how, how important our conference is. In that event, 12,13, 14 years ago, we had the financial wherewithal. To find really top flight class

00:56:15.129 - 00:56:34.229

counsel, who, one of whom, I'm sorry, I can't remember their names anymore, but one of these, lawyers is, I think, a frequent litigator in the Supreme Court. I mean, we, we had top flight lawyers who took this on a contingency. We

00:56:34.229 - 00:56:49.679

underwrote some expenses for them, and, you know, I remember being that year being at the magistrate judges conference. Right. And they were talking about their lawyer who they were paying by the hour, you know, they don't have a convention, they don't do the things that we

00:56:49.679 - 00:57:03.699

do. And I think that they had a little more, I mean, they came out like we did, as they should have, but, but that was something that I don't think anybody thought twice about in our group that we're gonna do, we're gonna do this,

00:57:03.770 - 00:57:20.479

we're gonna get the best lawyers we can and give this the best shot we can and we did. Yeah, I can't think of the lawyer either, although he just received an award, but in any event, and I will say that that law firm has since

00:57:20.479 - 00:57:38.840

then, on several occasions Gupta, there you go, man. There you go, and, and that his firm has helped the NCBJ pro bono on certain matters after this. All right, so let's talk about something a little more, well, that's pretty uplifting to me. I

00:57:38.840 - 00:58:02.040

remember I was pretty happy after that litigation, but what is the, is there anything that stands out as being like something you think about and you just start to laugh? Well, I remember, I remember at the annual meeting, there was a lawyer who

00:58:02.040 - 00:58:22.969

had received a Blackshear Fellowship, and I met this lawyer, and a really entertaining person, person was having the greatest time I had ever seen a lawyer have at the conference, you know, at all the events, at all the receptions. He honored at the

00:58:22.989 - 00:58:39.310

honored when we honor all the black shears. And then two of the judges, who were judges where this lawyer practiced came to me and said, well, how did so and so get to be a Blackshear fellow? We had to discipline that person for doing

00:58:39.310 - 00:58:57.699

something. And, and I don't remember all the ins and outs of it, but I remember thinking, wow. This is really. What do you do about this? It's not like you can take it back. And, I remember telling these two judges that, you

00:58:57.699 - 00:59:14.530

know, maybe what you did served its purpose, and now this is an opportunity for this person to move forward and to have a little springboard to move forward, but, but, man, it seemed kind of awkward. And, and I will tell you we changed the vetting process

00:59:14.530 - 00:59:32.050

after. I remember that. I remember that vividly. I just remember how unhappy these, these judges were, you know, it's not an amusing moment, but every time I go to a meeting and they have the consent agenda, yeah, I'm so proud of that, um, because I

00:59:32.050 - 00:59:48.479

think it may have been you. I know Anita Shodine talked to me about we spend x thousand dollars a year to bring all our board to a meeting and all we do is listen to people read reports and about 11:30, you know, we're done with that and then

00:59:48.479 - 01:00:03.620

we have 5 action items and everybody's in a hurry and things don't get done. So I was always proud that we did that, where we published the reports and if you have something you want to say about them, you can ask to have that

01:00:03.620 - 01:00:17.750

discussed at the meeting. No one has ever asked for anything to be discussed at the meeting, as I recall. And we actually got to do some substantive things, but it kind of cracks me up to think that we had to it took us so long

01:00:17.750 - 01:00:33.979

to get there. Well, you know, it's, you know, we're lawyers. We don't know how to do all that organ stuff. So is there anything you would change, from your year, something you wish you had done differently? You know, I think. I think you can always

01:00:33.979 - 01:00:52.330

be a better listener. I tried hard to be a good listener. You know, I'd like to think I did the best job I could on the ground. You know, the one thing you find as you age is. You look back and you think.

01:00:53.629 - 01:01:07.179

That seemed so awful at the time, whatever, whatever, situation you're dealing with, and, and you need a telescope for over 10 years and you think. You know, it wasn't pleasant, but we got through it and you move on. So I, you know, if

01:01:07.179 - 01:01:21.989

anything, I probably could have been a better listener. I probably could have been more patient. As I think I talked to you, I had a couple of what I thought were fairly significant leadership challenges before or, or during that year and, and, you know, hopefully

01:01:21.989 - 01:01:39.090

met them in a dignified and professional way. Well, I think you did, so. And I was right there watching you do it. You know, a couple of things you didn't talk about though, and, and so let's talk about what, what, what you may

01:01:39.090 - 01:01:53.399

think your most accomplished things, and I, I know of a couple, but I'm gonna see if you agree with me, so I'll let you start. You know, a thing that, that I didn't necessarily accomplish, but it happened in my year. That I had completely forgotten

01:01:53.399 - 01:02:17.070

about, I think 2014 was the year that we began to invest the conference's assets in equity funds and not just government. Buzz Lorch, remember him? Oh, absolutely, and Mary Grace Diehl sort of quarterbacked that. I think that's probably been incredibly beneficial to our

01:02:17.070 - 01:02:35.050

organization. And it was just something that we kind of never thought about. I'm really proud of these two things. I'm really proud of the future of the conference committee. I didn't invent that. Hopkins did that in 2000, whatever year he was president. But the purpose

01:02:35.050 - 01:02:54.550

of the future of the conference committee then and now is to look at whether the annual meeting and the structure of our organization. is really responsive not only to the legal education market, but to the needs of our colleagues. There was a lot of concern

01:02:54.550 - 01:03:14.479

in my time about, boy, we're, we don't make a lot of money on these meetings, we might lose money on these meetings. You know, it is a, it is a huge financial undertaking. That might yield a, a profit, if you will, an operating profit

01:03:14.479 - 01:03:31.129

of just a few percent. I mean, it's kind of like retail, right, and, and the slightest little hiccup. You know, if you're running a retail shop and oh, we have tariffs this year. Now I'm, now I'm in the red, you know, one unfortunate thing

01:03:31.129 - 01:03:49.090

happens and it could really have been devastating to us. So, I was really lucky. I'm, I'm glad I did that. We set up a really good committee. Cathy McEwen and Bob Grossman co-chaired that, which meant not only was it expertly done, but we

01:03:49.090 - 01:04:10.899

had a lot of fun doing it. Absolutely, and that feeds into the second thing I'm really most proud of, and that is. I thought it was really important to get new and recently appointed judges involved in that process as well as the other NCBJ government's

01:04:10.899 - 01:04:34.360

processes, you know, I took office in 2000. I succeeded a guy who was appointed in 1986 when, the curative to marathon was enacted, the Judgeship Amendments Act, can't remember what it's called, and gave us 14-year terms. When I became a judge in 2000, there

01:04:34.360 - 01:04:57.449

were a lot of What I would call older timers who were judges, and it did not seem to me that the NCBJ leadership ranks was Particularly accessible all the time. There's a little clubby. And you were either in the, in the gang or you weren't. And

01:04:57.510 - 01:05:15.469

I thought, you know, we need to open the door to more people, particularly now that, particularly then when we were looking at. Droves of people beginning to retire. You know, how would we pass on the organizational knowledge and how would we get newer, younger people

01:05:15.469 - 01:05:36.439

involved? I was, I received a great suggestion when I became president to talk to Denise Neary. And, and ascertain which new judges she saw as having potential to be good leaders, great colleagues in our organization, and, and, you know, she was the quarterback of judicial

01:05:36.439 - 01:05:51.780

education in those days, and I think up until the last couple of years ago, yeah, she, and for the, again for the young people, Denise is Stephanie Hammert's predecessor. Exactly. I, I was trying to, trying to pull that name up, but I haven't been

01:05:51.780 - 01:06:04.979

to FJC for a while. So, but, but in any event, I mean, she provided me with a lot of resources, and a lot of names and kind of, you know, this person has this strength, this person has that strength. I'm not gonna go into

01:06:04.979 - 01:06:20.810

who and who, but I will say that several of those people have been president of the conference, in the past 5 or 6 years, and it, it is so rewarding to me to see, go to these meetings and see these people that you kind of

01:06:20.810 - 01:06:36.139

gave them their first leg up. And, and they're really involved in the life of our work. I, I think the jury's kind of out on the future of the conference committee, what we proposed, you know, I think we thought the meetings were too long in

01:06:36.139 - 01:06:51.689

those days. So we had some short ones. I, I don't know that people necessarily like that. I don't know what the trend moving forward is, but to me, the lesson from that is not whether we were right or wrong, but that we took the time

01:06:52.030 - 01:07:09.129

to examine it, right, and, and do it in a disciplined way, you know, taking a survey, interviewing a lot of different kinds of people, different members of our group and lawyers outside. You can't just do it the way you always did it. No, you just

01:07:09.129 - 01:07:25.870

can't. Can't be static or the, or the organization doesn't survive. So, so you, you created that legacy, although of course. Afterwards, then COVID hit and then Zoom, and none of us had ever heard of Zoom. Now I know how to do all this cool stuff with

01:07:25.870 - 01:07:41.550

Zoom. I didn't know about Zoom. Yeah, so it changed, but, but again, it's always growing and you'll be happy to know that as part of the 100th anniversary celebration. The committee, although they're calling themselves something else these days, but whatever they're calling themselves, they're going through

01:07:41.550 - 01:08:02.800

the process again, that self-examination, that looking at the technology and the, the, the makeup of our judiciary and the, you know, etc. And so it'll be interesting to see for us judges what they unveil. I was approached about, I got somebody interviewed me about that. Yes,

01:08:02.899 - 01:08:18.640

you were interviewed. It's the, it's actually the future it's the future subcommittee of the 100th anniversary Committee, which I am. Co-chair, right, but the future committee, so it was just, it was just easier to write future, you know, just shorter, but, but they're

01:08:18.640 - 01:08:34.818

going through that now, so we'll see. They, they offered me an opportunity to be more active and I, which I was very flattered by, but you know, I'm kind of the past. We don't need the past on the future Committee. Well, there's, there's a lot of

01:08:34.818 - 01:08:47.628

different people. It's, it's, it's gonna be an exciting, it is an exciting process. I'm not, I can't wait to see what, what they have come up with. No, me too. Me too. Well, is there any last thoughts that you'd like to share with us before

01:08:47.628 - 01:09:05.679

I, and then I wanna thank you again. I've, we've taken up a lot of your time today, so thank you very much. So anything else that we haven't covered? I apologize for talking too much. I would just encourage. Any new judge. Join the conference,

01:09:05.838 - 01:09:25.729

but above all. Really embrace being a bankruptcy judge and find a way to love your job. You know, there are a lot of material benefits that you and I know about. But I think about how different my professional life was, and I, and I

01:09:25.729 - 01:09:42.939

felt like I had a full and very rewarding practice career. I mean, I love to be a lawyer. But it just took it to a different dimension for me to be one of these few people to hold this position, to have so many

01:09:42.939 - 01:10:02.020

friends and colleagues. You know, to get to have a cup of coffee with the Chief Justice. Remember when we got to go do that, I mean, just so many interesting experiences that you can have, as, as a bankruptcy judge. And Keeping

01:10:02.020 - 01:10:16.140

in mind that you always have the ability to do the right thing, usually had the power to back it up, it's really a privilege, and I'm so glad I got to do it, and I could not have done it nearly as well without being a part

01:10:16.140 - 01:10:29.560

of the NCBJ. Well thank you again very much for your time and we look forward to seeing you at future conferences. Take care. Well, I hope to see you here in a couple of months, Laurel. Thank you. It's wonderful to see you. You too. Take.