00:00:00.219 - 00:00:26.870

Hello, and my name is Tom Small and today, August 13th, 2025, I have the pleasure of being able to interview my very good friend the Honorable David Adams, who was United States bankruptcy judge for the Eastern District of Virginia from 1993 to 2008. And Dave

00:00:26.870 - 00:00:48.180

was also president of the National Conference of Bankruptcy Judges from 2006 to 2007. Good morning, David. Morning, Tom. And tell us a little bit about your background, where you grew up, where you went to school, and where you went to law school.

00:00:48.540 - 00:01:14.769

Sure. Well, I was born in in Cleveland, Ohio. And I was raised in Shaker Heights, Ohio, subdivision thereof. And as my father and my brothers and cousins and whole family, I went to the university school in Shaker Heights. And I went there until

00:01:15.750 - 00:01:36.309

almost halfway through my junior year, when I got severe kidney trouble and lost the rest of that year. In, in trying to deal with the kidney issue, they said I should go south to school and so I talked to the headmaster at the university school

00:01:36.309 - 00:01:57.779

and we didn't get very far because I got to Asheville school and, Asheville seemed to be way south of Cleveland, but much to my dismay, I found out it was in the Blue Ridge Mountains and I froze. And so I went to, finished

00:01:57.779 - 00:02:19.149

high school in, in Asheville and had decided in the 8th grade that I wanted to go to Washington and Lee and was fortunate enough to get into WL. Her undergraduate school and stayed on for law school. So I was there from 1961 to 1968. Do you,

00:02:19.190 - 00:02:42.110

practice law right after law school? No, the first job I had was a clerk, law clerk to the Honorable John A. McKenzie, a newly appointed district judge in Norfolk, Virginia, and I was his first full-time law clerk, and somehow he survived

00:02:42.110 - 00:03:03.779

that. But, and then I, from that one year with him, I pursued the practice of law for 24 years in different firms, but most of the time in my own firm, my own group. How did you get interested in bankruptcy law? Well, it,

00:03:04.309 - 00:03:30.240

it was kind of circuitous. I was privileged to represent a surety, and they write surety bonds to, to make sure the projects get completed. And what I, what happens, it was American Fidelity Fire Insurance Company. And what happens is their principals fail on various jobs

00:03:30.240 - 00:03:53.130

depending on what, what they're doing, and I had to find follow-on completion contractors, but by definition, I'm dealing with somebody who has failed. And so I had a lot of exposure to these contractors, and I, I built, I claim I built, I really didn't, but,

00:03:53.589 - 00:04:21.820

tennis courts to hospital wings to churches, all kinds of things, but it, it exposed me to the this area of the law that dealt with the hardship of the debtors. And that, and that led to two main cases that were really the ones

00:04:21.820 - 00:04:41.690

that I cut my teeth on, and they were Called Land Bank Equity Corporation and Friedlander Incorporated, and between the two of them, it was a billion dollars of second mortgage fraud. And I represented the trustee in those cases. And in fact, Friedlander was still ongoing when

00:04:41.690 - 00:05:02.769

I went on the bench. That, that was in the late 80s that they started, but that gave me the exposure to the distressed debtor situation and that put me in front of Judge Bonney in the bankruptcy court regularly. How, how did you come

00:05:02.769 - 00:05:26.859

to, to get the bankruptcy judgeship? Well, in Norfolk because of the caseload, it was an additional judgeship, a new judgeship, and there were several that applied for it, and I applied and had a great backing from Judge Cal Clarke, who was a

00:05:26.859 - 00:05:47.880

district judge, and who was also on the panel that selected the, the new bankruptcy judge. So, that was, and I had spent a lot of time before Judge Bonney, and I think he was helpful as well. Well, you mentioned Judge Bonney. He was

00:05:47.880 - 00:06:13.660

president of NCBJ at a very turbulent time. Tell us a little bit about Judge Bonney. Well, he was a very interesting personality. He was a Sunday preacher from time to time in a Baptist church. And very devoted to that. He

00:06:13.660 - 00:06:43.660

was a bachelor and he was the sole judge for many years and worked with Blackwell Shelley and Judge Bostetter. And handled the cases very well and very expeditiously, so he was a good example for me to follow. Uh-huh. And I know

00:06:43.660 - 00:07:00.260

when he was president of NCBJ was when they, when the, there was the constitutional crisis over whether we were going to be Article 3 judges or Article 1 judges, and he was right in the middle of that fight. I remember that. I

00:07:00.260 - 00:07:21.540

remember that as well, although I was not, not, you know, on the bench at the time. OK. When you were president of NCBJ what were some of the highlights of your presidency? Well, it's really easy to to point out that you dealt with

00:07:21.760 - 00:07:46.440

good lawyers and you dealt with some that were not so good, but you, you got to know how to deal with both good and mediocre lawyers. But it was also an opportunity to help individuals that needed relief from various means by which they had gotten

00:07:46.440 - 00:08:11.410

into financial difficulty. And so I felt that it was one way was to help the debtors understand why they were in debt and why they had the trouble that they, they had found themselves in. And so that was one facet

00:08:11.410 - 00:08:35.989

of the judgeship. Another was the outstanding lawyers that appeared before me, and they were very instructive, very competent. They were from New York, from Norfolk, Richmond. Mostly Virginia lawyers, but, very often, in the larger cases that we had lawyers from out of, out

00:08:35.989 - 00:08:57.770

of state. And they were very, very efficient and very knowledgeable, which was good, good grounds. Do you find that the bankruptcy bar was a very collegial group, very they got along pretty well? Yes, the, the bar itself was very collegial. We formed Judge

00:08:57.770 - 00:09:22.719

Bonney was the, the moving party, if you will, and the first president, we formed the Tidewater Bankruptcy Bar Association. And it involved all of the lawyers that practiced in the court. And I was the 2nd president of that organization, and it

00:09:23.059 - 00:09:44.989

held the bar together as a very collegial group and, and very interested in the bankruptcy laws. And in, in the practice of law in the bankruptcy court. What were some of the unusual or interesting cases that you had as bankruptcy judge? Well, before I,

00:09:45.130 - 00:10:06.880

as I mentioned before, I was a judge that Land Bank Equity and the Friedlander were amazing cases, and they had every facet of bankruptcy law that you can imagine. And based upon the evidence we had, in those two Chapter 11s, which I was

00:10:06.880 - 00:10:32.049

always amazed why they filed chapter 11, but in those two cases, ultimately all the principals went to prison based on our evidence, but one of the most notable cases I had was the AMF Bowling Company case out of Richmond. And they had lost

00:10:32.340 - 00:10:54.760

if my memory serves me, $200 million and trying to put bowling alleys in the Far East, and as most of us would recognize, the interest in the Far East in sports was mainly in golf. And so it didn't do well, but they had

00:10:55.890 - 00:11:19.669

3500 adversary proceedings going on in that case from people falling in the bowling lanes and various accidents and so forth. And one of the interesting ones was, well, and first I got rid of all of those cases, I sent them back to the state courts

00:11:19.919 - 00:11:45.039

where they were pending, but one was a case pending in California. And it was a group of youngsters that had decided to party all night. And 3 of them or 4 of them leaving the party about 6 in the morning, ran into a tree

00:11:45.039 - 00:12:09.140

and, and they were all killed, which was very tragic, but they, they in state court in California sued AMF because one of their personnel had served as a guard at the, or lookout at the meeting at the drinking event, if you will. And so they,

00:12:09.229 - 00:12:35.260

they wanted to remove that case to have me try it. And they brought the lawyer, interestingly, the, the lawyer who was representing the decedents and claiming that it was a responsibility of AMF to make sure these kids didn't drink to excess and

00:12:35.260 - 00:13:00.099

so forth. And that their lawyer came from California and we had the attorney for the debtor had done his homework and found out that that lawyer had been disbarred as a result of activities in the AMF case, and so, and it had been on appeal.

00:13:00.179 - 00:13:16.650

They had lost in the lower court and it was on appeal, and they wanted me to start it all over again. And of course you know exactly what I did with that and left it alone, but that was one of the very interesting cases and

00:13:17.700 - 00:13:36.619

testing the, you know, the practice of the debtor having to deal with the state court actions and so forth. OK. Let me, let me ask you about when you were president of NCBJ. What were some of the highlights or lowlights of your

00:13:36.619 - 00:13:59.380

presidency there? Well, my year we went to San Antonio, which, which is a fun city to be in, and that was, that was a, a great pleasure. One of the, the things that I cherish most from my judgeship were the relationships that

00:13:59.840 - 00:14:23.609

that came about because of the judgeship, and as you mentioned, you and I have been great friends for some time, and the bankruptcy bench was very collegial and had wonderful people, just wonderful friends. And that was always a pleasure to be with them.

00:14:23.900 - 00:14:46.450

To have that relationship and it carried out past my term as a judge, and, and so we've stayed in touch and it's just been a pleasure to be a part of the bankruptcy bench. One matter I might mention was, the

00:14:46.450 - 00:15:08.989

year before when we were in Nashville, I remember, and Elizabeth Warren, who's now a senator, appeared for the Commercial Law League. And decided to take on the judgeships and said that the bankruptcy bench was a bunch of dummies. And had no, no idea

00:15:08.989 - 00:15:29.789

what the real world was about, what was going on. And so, I was told that she was gonna come to San Antonio. And I made sure she was not the invitee of the, of the NCBJ. She was the invitee of the Commercial Law League

00:15:29.789 - 00:15:48.630

again. And they asked me to introduce her and I said, to whom? And that I was not interested in dealing with it after she had nailed all the bankruptcy judges. This is a bunch of idiots. So, she did not get introduced to the

00:15:48.630 - 00:16:14.260

entire attending company at the general session of the NCBJ in San Antonio. That's a side light you can deal with that as you may. OK. I remember when you were president of NCBJ, you and I had the well, we,

00:16:14.380 - 00:16:35.770

we went to, Justice Rehnquist's funeral. Do you remember that? I did when you helped me with reminded me about it. Yes, I did. And that was an opportunity of representing the bankruptcy bench in the NCBJ and, and we attended the, the funeral and

00:16:35.770 - 00:16:58.929

we, we also had some opportunities. I remember to meet with Justice, the new Chief Justice, yeah, Chief Justice Roberts, I guess shortly after he went, he became Chief Justice. We met with him. Yeah, it was within his first 6 months,

00:16:59.700 - 00:17:24.229

and, we had, had a very interesting meeting with him. He was new. And he was expressing his amazement at the, Supreme Court building and the, you know, what it represented. He didn't look at the notes as

00:17:24.229 - 00:17:44.880

to who was meeting with him, but he told us about the sofa upon which President John, and after it was President John Quincy Adams had passed away, and he, and he didn't realize that I was an Adams sitting there in front of him. And he

00:17:44.880 - 00:18:04.650

said, I said something about, well, that was my relative, and he said, well, you're not getting it back. He wanted to make sure that we were, I wasn't gonna, gonna get that sofa back. But interestingly, we, if you recall, we also met with Justice Thomas.

00:18:05.560 - 00:18:25.969

And he was quite a character. When I found that when he is not in front of the, the news media, he's very candid and very funny and very humorous, and he, he talked about his days in his RV going around the country with Secret Service

00:18:25.969 - 00:18:54.160

chasing him down and for protection. And I mentioned the, the Adams history. My great grandfather William Downer went to Yale with somebody who became pretty famous, William Howard Taft. And he became president, and that is the only, to my knowledge, the only

00:18:54.160 - 00:19:14.619

president that's ever been appointed Chief Justice of the Supreme Court after he was president, but he and Bill Downer were great friends, and I have a letter framed from President Taft to, to my great grandfather from the White House. And it's a little bit of history,

00:19:15.010 - 00:19:33.069

yeah. But yeah, I remember that when we met with Justice Chief Justice Roberts he said, you know, the the sofa you're sitting on, Tom and Dave is, is where John Quincy Adams died. But, yeah, that was, that was quite a

00:19:33.569 - 00:19:54.869

quite an event, but those meetings were really good. I think that, that NCBJ leadership had with the Chief Justices and we had that with Justice Rehnquist and then Justice Roberts followed that tradition and goes still carries on today.

00:19:55.329 - 00:20:14.630

Well, didn't it start with Justice Burger? I believe I'm not sure. It may have, but I wasn't part of that. No, neither one of us, but it, it was an opportunity for the bankruptcy bench to give kind of the State of the

00:20:14.630 - 00:20:34.719

Union. Information to the Chief Justice and we were, it's my experience, we're always well received. Always well received and, of course, Justice Burger was never a, never a friend of the bankruptcy judges, but, that's for sure. Anyway, you know, one event

00:20:34.719 - 00:20:56.859

that we were involved in was one of the first live TV programs, filmed, broadcast by the Federal Judicial Television Network. It was a review of the Fourth Circuit opinions, and I don't remember any of the opinions, but I do remember

00:20:56.859 - 00:21:16.780

what happened right before the cameras went on. Do you remember that, Dave? No, help me. Well, you played a trick on everyone and as, as the cameras came on, you had, some of these unusual teeth that you had had

00:21:16.780 - 00:21:38.030

bought that that uh really got everyone's attention. Yeah, well, you, you gotta get some levity in some of this serious mess. Right. Right. Well, after you retired, you spent a lot of time in your home in Florida. Did you have any judicial

00:21:38.030 - 00:22:07.969

activities down there? Yes, I did. The 11th Circuit got permission from the Fourth Circuit for me to sit in West Palm Beach. The judge, the judge that was not reappointed after some bad docket control. And so they asked me to,

00:22:08.099 - 00:22:32.319

to take his docket. And then, so I sat in West Palm Beach under the permission from the 11th Circuit. And the 4th Circuit for 6 months, and then, I was asked if I would help out, and this goes back to the

00:22:32.319 - 00:22:48.969

collegiality of the bankruptcy bench. And I was asked if I could help out. They needed some help. And I said, sure, I would be, be glad to help, but I forgot to ask the question, where and what's the status of the docket? And it

00:22:48.969 - 00:23:11.160

turned out it was a follow-on of Judge Paskay in Fort Myers, Florida. So I had to commute from North Palm Beach, where we have a home. I sat in Fort Myers for a year. And when I got there, they, they

00:23:11.160 - 00:23:37.040

had 13,000 cases pending on the docket. And I advised the bankruptcy bar there that I came from the 4th Circuit, Eastern District of Virginia, which was known as the Rocket docket. And I saw a lot of concerned faces as to what, what that was gonna do

00:23:37.040 - 00:23:54.589

to them, because all of them had these cases on the docket for years. And so any event, the other thing I told him is I didn't understand the word continuance. And I think in fairness, and, and not anything other than the fact of

00:23:54.589 - 00:24:10.900

the practice of it, I think they appreciated it by the end of that, my year that they knew that when they set a trial that it would be heard at that time, or they had motions, they were gonna be heard when they were set

00:24:10.900 - 00:24:27.900

by the court. So I think they appreciated it, and it was very simple to tell them that they've got to clean up their dockets, their own dockets, in order to get paid and, and get additional cases and so forth. So I think it, it

00:24:27.900 - 00:24:46.479

worked out pretty well. OK, and how, how long did you do that for? A year, a year, yeah, and, there was one event I wanted to ask you about. There was a time when you were a bankruptcy judge where you grew this magnificent

00:24:46.479 - 00:25:12.270

beard. What was that all about? Well, in, in Virginia Beach, there's a society, a group that in, now it's been almost 50 years ago, decided when all of the, tourists left the beach that they should celebrate. A good season with the

00:25:12.270 - 00:25:35.510

tourists, and they formed and created the Neptune Festival, and it was based upon the Greek god of the sea, King Neptune. And so what they would do is kind of like the chamber of Commerce, but not, not really. But they would have a

00:25:35.510 - 00:26:05.369

panel and they would select a prominent or well-known or successful business person, and have him named King Neptune. I was king Neptune the 26th in 1999. And the first 3 or 4 years, they had the, the kings had beards by makeup. And

00:26:05.369 - 00:26:22.150

King Neptune the 7th said he wasn't gonna do that anymore, he's gonna grow his own beard, and that started the tradition. So, when, when they came to ask me if I would be willing to serve as king Neptune, they said, by the way, can you grow

00:26:22.410 - 00:26:39.640

a beard? And I said, well, I have never tried, so we'll see what happens. And that was the beard that you saw. And as King Neptune in 1999, and I told him that as my parting shot was I'm the only king you'll ever know that

00:26:39.640 - 00:26:57.760

my reign started in one century and ended in the next. Well, very interesting, and it was a very good beard, I must add. Well, Dave, is there anything else you wanna add, any other comments you might want to add to

00:26:57.760 - 00:27:21.189

this interview? Well, just in general, a general kind of closing comment would be, I was very fortunate, I think, to be appointed, a bankruptcy judge, and it was, an opportunity to deal with some wonderful people and really wonderful people, and I, I can't

00:27:21.189 - 00:27:43.979

think of anybody who wasn't up to that level of personality and practice and just congeniality. Well, I would agree with that. And, well, thank you so much, Dave. I know you're enjoying your retirement, both in Virginia Beach and down in Florida.

00:27:44.239 - 00:28:04.199

Right. Well, and it's hard to believe it's 14 years. I can't believe that. They just went by so quickly. It well, well, the same for me also my successor has already retired. But anyway. Anyway, Dave, good to see you again and

00:28:04.199 - 00:28:13.359

we'll talk again soon. Thanks, Tom. I really appreciate it. OK, you take care. All right, thank you.