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All right, hello, everyone. I'm very pleased and honored to be here today with John Waites, a former president of the National Conference of Bankruptcy Judges, and my predecessor. Thank you so much, Judge Waites for being here today and taking the time to do this interview. Thank

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you. It's nice to see you. Likewise. So Judge Waites, I want to start with just a little bit of background. Could you tell us the district that you served in and how long you served as a bankruptcy judge? Sure, I served in the District

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of South Carolina for 28 years as a judge, 2 terms. When did you start? So 1994 is one of the year that I started and I retired in 2022 after my second term. And when, when were you, I'm sorry, when were you the NCBJ

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president? The year 2018 to 2019. OK, so let's talk a little bit about your origin story. What made you decide to become a lawyer and what made you decide to become a bankruptcy lawyer? Well, it's a, it is a little bit interesting in the sense

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that when I graduated Davidson College in North Carolina, I was, I intended to go to graduate school and in clinical psychology. And for that program, you had to take a, you have to take some sort of test GREs or something, I

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don't know what it was called. And they actually took, and we took the test at the college. In those days, they mailed the test to New Jersey to be graded. And they lost the test in the mail. So as a result, I couldn't apply

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to the graduate school that I wanted to go to in that field, and I wasn't sure what to do, but I decided just to go back home to South Carolina and, and go to law school. So it was kind of meant to be, I guess.

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I, I guess so. And those GRE tests, boy, those were grueling. So the fact that they lost your test. Exactly. You have to take the study again, so that would be bad. OK, so you fell into law school, by happenstance or direction, we don't

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know, but in any event, a happy, a happy circumstance, but so then what happened? How did you get into bankruptcy law? Well, I was just a clerk in law school, worked the entire time, and I worked in a general practice firm, and it was a

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small firm, but the people that I worked for owned the building and in the lower first floor of the building was this sort of a niche specialty bankruptcy law firm. Occasionally they would have conflicts and they, so I was the new associate

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at the bigger firm and they would come up and say, would you do this? Would you be interested in doing this? And I started to do a little bit of bankruptcy work, some creditors, some debtor, that sort of thing. And I really it gave me the

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occasion to go to the bankruptcy court and appear in front of the single judge in our district at that time, who was a fabulous person and a great judge and very civil. It was a very organized court, unlike our state court system where I practiced where

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you never knew when your case would be called. And I sort of really liked the structure and the organization of bankruptcy, and I started doing more and more bankruptcy work. Eventually, they offered me a job at the bankruptcy court, and I went over as

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the, the same year my first daughter was born, my first child. We decided that I would go over and work for the bankruptcy court in the estate administrator position, which used to be sort of same duties as the US trustee does, and I worked there

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for a period of time thinking that maybe this was a good opportunity to get to know the judge who made the appointments of trustees who all of them seem to be doing pretty well. And I thought maybe I'd have an opportunity after a couple of

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years to find favor and get that appointment. Well what happened in sort of my 3rd year, I think 2nd or 3rd year, they passed the United States Trustee program. Which effectively eliminated my job as the estate administrator and replaced it with the United States Trustee program.

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I decided to go into practice at that point and I really already had decided who I'd practice with and had bought furniture and put in the office over there ready for me to go. They asked me to stay a little bit longer at the

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court, and then it was suggested to me that I go ahead in the meantime and apply for the assistant US trustee position in South Carolina, which would be sort of the job that I had. but while we were, I was at it, I went ahead

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and applied for the US trustee for the region, which is Region 4. because of the Political situation, one of our state one of our United States senators was Strom Thurmond, and he was the Chair of the Judiciary Committee. Who had a lot to do

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with the US Trustee program being committed, being created. And I think what he decided, didn't know it at that point. I know a lot of people from South Carolina supported me for the United States trustee position, which was sort of a political appointment by the Attorney

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General, and he decided that I would make a good United States trustee. I was 31 years old. And the deal was that I would move to Alexandria, Virginia where they had a pilot program in the office, and I actually, they, they asked me to confirm

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that I would do that. The senator's reasoning was that he could place one of his former staff people back in South Carolina and returned them home after good service, but they wanted to go and they'd work in that program and that person became the assistant US

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Trustee. My wife and I visited Alexandria and loved it. It's a beautiful place, extremely expensive to live in compared to South Carolina. I remember working in the office and my wife going out with a realtor and meeting me at lunch and she basically was shouting

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at me, we can never afford to live here. So eventually, I prevailed upon the department to let me stay in South Carolina and through some political discussion between the two senators, one a Democrat, one Republican they allowed the regional office to be

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changed from Virginia to South Carolina. So I served as US Trustee for a full term, 5 years. Had an interest at that time in maybe becoming a bankruptcy judge. I knew one of the judges on the Court of Appeals. Generally and he had recommended,

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I said, what, what do you think about that path? And he said, well, you know, you probably would be a good thing to work in private practice for a period of time. I had been Yeah, as a young lawyer in private practice and including a couple

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years of sole practice which I enjoyed a lot, but you worked very hard in sole practice. That was a good experience for me to remember that when lawyers in sole practice appeared in front of me later, but I left the US Trustee program, became

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a partner in a law firm in South Carolina. I worked there for 2 years and then they created a new 3rd position in South Carolina and I applied for it. And then there is another story. So, so, so you, you sort of went from private practice to public

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service back to private practice, and then you were willing to go back into public service as a bankruptcy judge. So, it's interesting before we go on to that, you know, you mentioned Strom Thurmond, so how did you know the senators from South Carolina? I

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didn't. I didn't really know. I didn't really know them. My father had been, Strom Thurmond was a Republican, long-serving senator, and on the Democratic side, Fritz Hollings from Charleston was a very long serving Democratic senator. And my father had been a Republican, but it

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was really nonpartisan mayor of a small city, but that really, I really did not know him. But were it not for the letters of support from lawyers and trustees and Other people that I, I'm sure I would not have been on the radar for the

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United States Trustee position, which really led me to sort of have a specialist. A pedigree to maybe be a judge one day. but it was really fate. Because on some occasions, either, even one of the law clerks that worked in the office of the court

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that I I served as a state administrator, his uncle owned a grocery store chain in North Carolina and was good friends with the governor of North Carolina, who was a former president of the college that I went to, Jim Martin. So he wrote a letter for

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me to the Attorney General. Supporting me for a job that didn't apply in his state. Oh, but that, but it just goes to show, you know, there's that the, his esteem and high regard that we all hold you in started when you were

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very, very young. So let's turn now to your appointment as a bankruptcy judge. I understand you have quite an interesting story to tell, so would you share it with us? Well, so we, I was really in the class of 1992. That's when they were looking

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for the bankruptcy judges and there were several of our colleagues that were appointed in that cycle, and I applied and, you know, you don't know, but I understood from the grapevine that I was rated number one by the merit panel. And that

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I would, I might be recommended by them to be a judge. again, I guess like you can say now off the record, I called one of the judges I knew on the Court of Appeals, and all the court of appeals judges, there were 3 or

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3 at that time from South Carolina. And in the 4th Circuit, they just deferred, when they selected the judge, they just deferred to the judges from the state. Whoever you want, you can pick it just don't matter, interfere with who I want in my state. And that

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judge said, well, John, I'm really supportive of you, but We were all appointed by we were all recommended by Senator Thurmond. And if and really his recommendation, will carry the day with us. Earlier one of my great friends, great life friends, and still a

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great friend, but a retired judge, Thurmond Bishop, who some of you may know, and he served as a judge in, in my district. Well, he was Senator Thurmond's nephew. So he was, he was appointed without any bankruptcy background, but somewhere along the line, the politician side

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of the system had understood that we can influence the court of appeals judges. To make the selections of bankruptcy judges. And that's the way that works. Senator Thurmond. was going to make the selection. They actually made the selection, and it was another person. It wasn't me.

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and so I've understood that and I knew the person very well and congratulated him so that I'd do anything I could to help him. it was the same person that the Senator had placed as the assistant United States Trustee back in South Carolina. So

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all ties back in, but what happened was that the, The Democratic senator who I knew not very well at all, had been introduced to, but I had the great opportunity to work with the chief district Judge Sol Blatt, who was revered figure in South

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Carolina and worked on the Hilton Head bankruptcy cases and withdrawn reference on that whole island when it was in bankruptcy. And he knew the senator very well, and they were very upset that here again, the bankruptcy process was being diverted. The politics from the merit selection

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process. So Senator Hollings happened to be the chair of the Budget Committee on the judiciary in the courts, and he had a provision put in the bill. That you couldn't be a bankruptcy judge unless you were rated in the top 3 by the merit selection panel.

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And the fellow that received the appointment was not. So the seat couldn't be funded. And they had to start over. And because apparently, I was told that I took my earlier defeat well. And I'd been a good guy about it, that ultimately, after some years, they

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settled back on me being the judge, so it was delayed from 1992 to 1994. At one point during that process, the senators were so annoyed with each other, they stopped each other's recommendations for district bench judges. So there were district judges who didn't, couldn't take the

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bench because they were mad over me and it was not my fault. I didn't, it was just. It was just I had no knowledge or I had no, you know, it wasn't my plan, it just happened. So it was sort of meant to be, I

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think. And so in 1994, I became a bankruptcy judge, but I used to tell people two things. One, yeah, I went through the same thing as to, as you would to be, you know, a district court or a court of appeals judge because it was a

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senatorial decision. And I was nobody's first choice, but I was, I was the acceptable second choice, so well, I get the feeling, especially if the rumor has it, and it wouldn't surprise me that you were number one selection out of the merits panel,

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that's not exactly, but as always, Judge Waites, you have, you are humble and but we all know, we all know, so I was very lucky. I was very lucky. But you, you've been guided by fate, starting with the GRE exam. Well, let's turn now

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to your bank, your service as a bankruptcy judge, and I know that there are other interviews that you've done regarding that, so I'm not gonna spend a lot of time on that, your service in terms of details, but I do

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have just a couple of questions for you. And one question is going to be what was your favorite case? And the other question is going to be what do you believe was your you personally feel was your greatest accomplishment as a bankruptcy judge.

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So let's start first with your favorite case. Do you have a favorite case? Well, they, you know, a lot of the bigger cases that you have, and we had some bigger cases in South Carolina were, were challenging and they were good cases and, and I

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enjoyed working with really national caliber lawyers, but I always refer to, there are two cases I would say are my favorite. 1, I can mention briefly only because of the Georgetown in Georgetown, South Carolina, coastal city, they had a steel factory and it

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failed and had to file bankruptcy and it was really, it went up for sale and the high bidder and the process was going to close the company and I had never heard of this, but they were gonna move, it's

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a huge physical plant in Georgetown, South Carolina. They were gonna move it. And I remember having the, they had the auction in a lawyer's office and then I had to approve the bid and we went back to the courtroom. The courtroom was full primarily

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of steel workers who are gonna lose their job and we had our hearing and the bottom line is, I became convinced that the value, there was value in the employment, continued employment, the continued ability to do pay trade debt, the unsecured creditors supported the

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continued operation. So Unlike what some judges would do, I rejected the high bid and accepted a lower bid because I found value in these other things and that, I received some attention for that and they, there's even a road in Georgetown, South

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Carolina named John Waites Court. So no idea if it was named after me, but oh no, I'm sure there are many John Waites in the area, and that may be enough time, but the most interesting case I had was what was called

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the Confederate Papers case. And the short story is that there was a debtor, and he, before he was a debtor, he was cleaning out his aunt's house and because she had to move and he testified that on the last

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run through, he sort of ran his hand through on the top shelf of a closet, he found a bundle of papers. And it turns out that those papers were Confederate era documents and correspondence between the southern governor and the military and that sort of

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thing. Well, it turns out that that had significant value as an artifact or in some in some and particularly in the Charleston, South Carolina, where which has a long history of this sort of trade. And the state of

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South Carolina asked to copy the documents, put them in the archives, which he agreed, and then the state decided, wait a minute, we don't think you should sell them for $2.5 million. We think, they belong to us. So they see the documents and they made

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the argument that they were public documents and then therefore, then the guy filed bankruptcy. And then so the decision that we had to make were they public documents or were they personal documents, or did he own those documents he could do what he wants to.

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And so the state of South Carolina was a litigant as well as the parties for lawyers for this fellow. and it was interesting and ultimately I decided that they were public documents because the state law indicated that, you know, a lot of these,

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these are not personal correspondence from the governor. They were, they were things like the letters to the to the generals, Confederate generals to move assets and people from soldiers from Columbia which was burned by Sherman and his march through. They were all

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militaristic and of governmental purpose. And the law in South Carolina, was fairly clear on that. So I held that that was not a popular decision, particularly with all those people in Charleston who made a lot of money on selling documents, so I don't know exactly the reason,

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but I was reversed by the district judge in Charleston, and he said no, they were personal, and the guy could sell them. It went on appeal, and this is the last cute thing about it. They went on appeal to the Court of Appeals. And the

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interesting thing about the case is there was no fact. There was no, obviously there's no witness from 1865. There's nobody that could testify as to what they were intended to be or what, And there wasn't the same sort of system or laws that supported

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them being personal documents like you do in a senatorial or presidential setting. So anyway, there was really nothing. You just had to cobble together the law from the facts. And anyway, it went on appeal and I was, my reversal was affirmed, meaning

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I was wrong and Judge Wilkinson from the Fourth Circuit, the first line Of the order was I guess we really, I guess we need to rely on the common law phrase possession is 9/10 of the law. OK, it was in the closet. I

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mean I see that as the posses. I thought that was an interesting case. I hope, I hope it is interesting. Wow, yeah, but I lost, so I didn't lose many, but I lost that case. Well, you know, the thing is you didn't lose the case. The state

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of South Carolina lost the case, but, yeah, that is, and of course that way the guy is able to pay off all his debt. So there you go. I, you know, many people that know you and know your resume know that you have

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received a lot of awards for your contributions and through public service, your use of your platform as a bankruptcy judge to make a difference both in your community and in the world in general, and I wonder is there any particular accomplishment,

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and I know none that you've never done any of this to be recognized. I know you very well, and I know that none nothing that you've done is for the purpose of being recognized, but we can't help it. We have to say thank you for all

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the wonderful things you do. But is there something that stands out as your most significant or greatest accomplishment to you personally, while you were a bankruptcy judge? Well, I think I approach being a judge is an opportunity to, we all make a difference

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in every day and every decision we made, but I followed the lead of people like you and your colleagues in Florida and others to really try to say, is there, is there a program? Is there something I can do to help people beyond just making

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the decision in each particular case. And so, That and the influence that I received George Cauthen, who is a nationally known lawyer and was actually the clerk of the bankruptcy court who hired me to come work over there. George was a, dedicated his

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life and he's still alive and retired and still a dear friend. But he dedicated his life to pro bono work and he went with a very big firm and turned that firm into a nationally acclaimed recognized pro bono dedicated firm. That's has

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sponsored so many wonderful things, and George's influence over me and it, it sort of snuck up on me because I didn't really know, but I realized when I had the opportunity, I could, I could really sort of open the court up and have You know, pro bono

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clinics and ask a lawyer hotlines and I became a member early on well, when the year it was created at the South Carolina Access to Justice Commission, you know, your state and probably most have, have a state Access to Justice Commission which focuses on

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service to citizens and making lawyers service available and I became a member of it in their first year. And I actually stayed on that supposedly for a three-year term, but I think I stayed on it from 2007 when it was created to 2022 when I

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retired. So and, and, and I used to say that it was not what I contributed to them, I would go and just be amazed at the dedicated public service lawyers and the ideas and the creativity and the effort and it just inspired

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me to try to do more and more things. And so I became sort of very active and you know that broadened it to the care program and we created in and in the court in South Carolina named after my

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mentor judge, the first judge that I served under and did a lot of public outreach things and, and the trick is not that you do it yourself because you, you can't do it yourself. The reason it works is the lawyers

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buy into it. The lawyers are willing to serve, the lawyers are willing to give their time, and we have an excellent, wonderful bar, and they just made all those things successful. So I'd say that was the, That was the biggest thing that I'm, or the thing

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that I'm the proudest of is during at least in my term, term that you know, we became known to facilitate this kind of efforts to support the public. And that, and that's wonderful, and that is one of the many reasons that you

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received the National Conference of Bankruptcy Judges Public Outreach Award, among other recognitions. Well, the, the first, the first committee I served on in NCBJ was the Public Service Committee, Public Outreach Committee, the first one, I think you were a member then and several, several more outstanding judges,

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so. Well, there you go. So let's turn, that's a logical turning point to the National Conference of Bankruptcy Judges. So when did you first become involved with the National Conference of Bankruptcy Judges and is there a particular reason why you decided to become involved? Well, I,

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I became a little bit involved a little bit later in my career than I wish I had. I had, I took the bench when I was 37 or 38 years old. So I was, my kids were young. I mean, I

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have 3 children, and so they were, you know, they kept us busy. And so we really didn't, we didn't do a lot of traveling or involvement in organizations outside of just the court system, my wife and I, until they got a little bit older. So

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I can't recall the year that I first went to a conference, but I honestly fell in love with, with my colleagues and found it not only just outstanding opportunity to learn. Things that I didn't have the opportunity to learn in my practice and

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my judge case load in South Carolina, but I just, I just really love the people. I just really got to have so many friends and they were so, they were so natural, great people, had good ideas that were dedicated to their jobs and, and, and, and

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so that's what drew me to NCBJ is just our colleagues and I think that's what draws most people. But I then I didn't miss. I don't think I, I came to everything I could possibly come to because it was, it was just the

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opportunity to be with my friends and people, but I learned a lot and I was able to take back an idea that another judge had or something they were doing back to my casework and people thought, well this is a great idea and of course

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I just copied somebody else's idea, but that's perfectly fine if you can implement it, it still works. So, that's how I became involved in I enjoyed it very, you know, love, love NCBJ. Yeah, the that the I always say to

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people that the collegiality that bankruptcy judges have is not met in in any other federal group, and it, and it is a true gift. We all have mentors and and mentors in the NCBJ as well. Are there any particular people that

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you identify as your mentors? Like I identify you as one of my mentors. And that, and I, I do you. So, and there's so many outstanding people. I couldn't, I would, if I named them, I would miss people. But I'll just say that, you

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know, my, in my term as president, I was preceded by Mike Romero and succeeded by you. And I thought, well, they must have taken a rest year with me because they had two such outstanding people and judges and, and so many, so many wonderful people.

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I got involved, I served on the legislative committee. Judge Diehl, I think during her term, I'm not sure, but I got, I got, maybe it might have been a member before, but she made me co-chair of the legislative committee, and I saw

00:29:18.790 - 00:29:36.439

the just tremendous value and importance of the legislative committee, in its work and you know, they made lots of trips to Washington and And so I got to know those folks very well and, and as a result, we spent time in the administrative

00:29:36.439 - 00:29:52.869

office. Some of those people I've known before I became a judge even from my days in court, and so I don't really think I can single out any particular person. I you know, Mary Walrath was president when I was, when I was secretary, which

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is I still maintain the hardest job in the in the on the board because you got so much work to do on a daily basis, but I just love, I just loved the I just love the work and had so many good friends

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and that even though sometimes I'm not able to travel much, I try to make, try to make the conferences if I can and hope to in my retirement because I, I just still, I still see people that I know. There are a lot of

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new judges, but there's still good friends that I have, so. And then you make new friends. So, right, so you served on the public outreach committee. You co-chaired the legislative committee. You were the secretary of the conference, what other committees were you involved in and

00:30:42.270 - 00:30:58.079

what other offices, if any, did you hold other than President-elect, immediate past president, while you were on NCBJ? Now my memory is so much worse than it used to be. I told you that a lot of unfortunately, a lot of things That I've done

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I I just age and other for other reasons I, I can't recall as well, but I, you know, I was, I, I think those are the primary committees I was on. I can't think of others, but, you know, it was obviously, you

00:31:14.160 - 00:31:31.010

received the, I mean between the legislative committee, which is a very active, hardworking committee, and then being on the board, you know, where you really do work and the secretary, we do a lot of work and I think that gave me the knowledge, enough knowledge

00:31:31.010 - 00:31:52.579

to serve as president, although there's certainly no road map on that job, so But it was just basically just enjoying going to the meetings and seeing, seeing each other. OK. Well, let me ask you this, do you have any advice for our

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any of our judicial colleagues that are not members of the NCBJ as to what you view as the advantages other than the, obviously the social advantages and that ability to share information and get information from our colleagues. Well, that's the, that's the benefit. That's the

00:32:12.109 - 00:32:29.359

benefit, that's the benefit because You know, there are judges who believe, well, we all know that when you become a judge, you, you are become somewhat more isolated than you were when you're in practice. And so, and obviously, if you have good colleagues that you in

00:32:29.359 - 00:32:45.270

your district, and that's good or, or and even good colleagues on other courts in your district, you might know them. But, but to really benefit. And to broaden your perspective, being a member of NCBJ and being active, at least in attending and enjoying. You don't have

00:32:45.270 - 00:33:01.160

to be every officer of every group. You can just go and, and meet people and talk to people and enjoy people and you learn a lot. And, and then you, and obviously through our conference. In, in this presentation, you learn, you, you broaden your ability and

00:33:01.160 - 00:33:15.390

you can, and you get back to that isolation, you don't feel quite as isolated and you benefit as a judge, I think in terms of your ability to do your job and no criticism of judges who think that they have to be the, you know,

00:33:16.040 - 00:33:35.199

sole soldier in the fort, but I, I don't think that that's necessarily the best way to do it. So, I just think The earlier you become involved, the better. And my successor, on the bench, Elisabetta Gasparini is, was my second

00:33:35.199 - 00:33:53.660

law clerk and she is fully involved in NCBJ and she is because she's already, succeeded my involvement in her first couple of years, so she's, so at least I've inspired that in her, so. Yeah, she's a great, she's a great addition to the

00:33:53.660 - 00:34:09.629

bench and a great addition to the conference. So thank you, thank you very much for that. Well, I'm I'm lucky to have worked with her. Right, so let's, let's talk about your presidency, your year of presidency, and other than the fact that you had a

00:34:09.629 - 00:34:29.679

fabulous president-elect, which, which we all know, where, let's talk about, that year. So what, what did you view as the most challenging issue that you had to deal with during that year? Well, I, I'd start with saying that I, I think I probably was

00:34:29.679 - 00:34:46.259

a little bit of a surprise selection to be president, and I say that not because I hadn't pay my dues. Literally, You know, it, it used to be, and I don't know how it should be or how it is now, but it

00:34:46.259 - 00:35:01.849

used to be sort of if you had any interest, you'd express an interest and you kind of wait your turn, really. And eventually, and, I was able to be selected and it came a little bit as a surprise to me, but,

00:35:01.979 - 00:35:16.510

I had as far as Really, and you know, there's really, like I say, no road map and when you have a single director and they're very involved in running the day to day and we have a single term one year presidents.

00:35:16.590 - 00:35:37.540

So I think, I think I was surprised how, how much was sort of not really within your expected purview, so The plans you make as president to fix this or change this or do this, aren't always easily accomplished because, you know, they're sort

00:35:37.540 - 00:35:55.419

of things were set and things operate a certain way. I remember the first thing you, the two first things you do, right? And you know, you pick your educational chair. And I'd like to mention that was this, again one of those extraordinary lucky things

00:35:55.419 - 00:36:12.310

that, that happened to me in life, not due to me, but Michelle Harner from Maryland, our great, great colleague, was a fairly new judge, but, and I didn't know her that well even though I had been around a while. She was new and she agreed to

00:36:12.310 - 00:36:28.550

be my educational chair and so who could be better? She's one of the clients. She is, was so well connected and so smart and so calm and so excellent and everything she did. The other thing that I did was really at the beginning

00:36:28.550 - 00:36:46.969

was I sort of, I think it could, you could say I mishandled it, but I don't think I took the president, the committee appointment prerogative as an opportunity to make some changes in that, I had, at least I had heard, you know,

00:36:47.070 - 00:36:59.090

there's some, some judge members would say, well, the same people run the organization and that's, you know, there's a hierarchy and then they're the same people that kind of run everything. So I made a real effort to change that and putting it in recruiting new people

00:36:59.090 - 00:37:13.810

to committees, change some chairmanships and that sort of thing. And it was all well received by the people. Nobody was upset with me as far as I know, except for the director. She was upset because she, she wanted, she wanted me to clear it with her first

00:37:13.810 - 00:37:26.649

and I didn't know that I needed to. But the idea was to kind of put, to bring in some new people. And really try to say, well, I'm gonna kind of be on your back to see that your committee is meeting and talking and

00:37:26.649 - 00:37:48.699

doing stuff because of for accountability. But the issues that we faced were leftover issues that I blame Mike Romero for. Fair enough. So because he preceded me. No, the venue issue was the difficult issue that was raised during his term. And really it was

00:37:48.699 - 00:38:07.709

my, the, the wisdom of the judges other than I, It was settled with, as you know, the, the writing of a white paper to, to really set out the positions and That, that, that controversy, I think within our organization was settled before I became

00:38:07.709 - 00:38:23.959

president. But we had to finish it out and publish the paper and deal with the press and that in, in Congress a little bit during my term, a little bit of the venue. online learning was a big issue during my term. Mike had formed

00:38:23.959 - 00:38:44.510

the committee, and there was a lot of support for the organization to, to produce our own seminars and publications and in charge for those and I worried that we'd be competing or trying to compete with the giant in the industry, the ABI,

00:38:44.639 - 00:39:01.010

who was our friend and very supportive. I knew Sam Giordano for years and years and years and they'd always been sort of there to help the judges, and I worried about that, but, but, I think there was, there was a strong

00:39:01.010 - 00:39:19.429

enthusiasm and some, very, some, some of our leaders in the organization were leaders of that committee and were supportive of it and, and the director was very supportive of it as a new source of income and I think, so we went with

00:39:19.429 - 00:39:38.060

online learning and that was a struggle because you, you're gonna lose money when you do that, you learn a new process, and there were some disagreements and some, some, some difficulties. Judges are enthusiastic. All of us can, can, are recruited to go to ABI conferences and speak

00:39:38.060 - 00:39:54.780

and, and are a draw and the very value. A valuable asset for the bar to listen to a judge speak and a judge's perspective and learn from that was not an issue, so that the production of, of seminars was not an issue, but the management of it,

00:39:54.840 - 00:40:15.879

the publication for the charging for it, which some people thought was poor, in poor taste, and then the really what the stumbling block was, was the reporting of continuing legal education credits that became something that couldn't be done or at least the director said we really

00:40:15.879 - 00:40:33.620

can't do it except for big states we could report it, we can, we can handle New York, you know, California and other places. From South Carolina and I'm saying, well, I don't I don't support something that you can't, I can't get a South Carolinian credit credit

00:40:33.620 - 00:40:47.590

for. I don't support doing it, you know, ABI can do it, why can't we do it? So there was some, and you're aware of this, there was some Difficulties during those, those that year in regards to that. And at the same time, I had, I

00:40:47.590 - 00:41:04.110

had talked to Kareem and Sam Giordano at ABI and they were certainly willing to support us and be our partner and but I just let it ride out. And so we, we lost a little money and and we had to try things that didn't

00:41:04.110 - 00:41:20.409

work and it was not because I really wanted it to work. I just wanted it to be fairly Tried and now the way the NCBJ handles it, I think it's perfect. I don't know how y'all worked it out when I left and retired, but I think

00:41:20.409 - 00:41:33.290

it's just the right way. Well, I, I, I think there's a couple of things. One, I think we have to give context to those who will be watching this interview. All of this took place between 2018 and 2019 when none of us had heard of Zoom.

00:41:34.409 - 00:41:48.429

We didn't know about Zoom, you know, there was, there was the technology, both the familiar I mean it may have been out there, but it wasn't something that any of us knew about. So that was one issue. And the other is, as you said, that the

00:41:48.429 - 00:42:05.909

cost associated with getting that CLE credit, even with the assistance of the ABI or others was just too impossible to overcome. So what we've done is now we have Zoom. And we don't give CLE credit. We just give the opportunity to, to, to listen to the

00:42:05.909 - 00:42:19.989

judges. There's no charge, so we provide the service consistent with our mission statement, but I think it's important for people to understand, especially those younger people who will be watching this interview, that are like, well, wait, what's the problem? You could just turn on the zoom

00:42:19.989 - 00:42:35.500

thing. Well, the zoom thing wasn't there, so. So, all right, so, but what about there's something else that was very significant that happened during your tenure, and that was the shutdown, the government shutdown. Talk to us about that. One of the one of the, one

00:42:35.500 - 00:42:52.830

of the issues that occurred was well, and it happens I guess annually now the possibility that that the government will be shut down and And in the past, there was a real question during my tenure as president, there actually had been a strong

00:42:52.830 - 00:43:14.389

recommendation to the director Jim Duff by the budget people that the bankruptcy judges weren't authorized to be paid during the government shutdown. And he sent out a notice for comment as he would do. And I understood that his position, he

00:43:14.389 - 00:43:31.449

taken the position historically that he supported the judges being paid, and he still supported us being paid, but I understood from behind the scenes that he felt significant pressure this time. To follow the recommendation. And so we needed to step up and comment

00:43:31.449 - 00:43:49.679

on that. And so we we really did, you remember as a as a pre as president-elect and member of the executive committee, we really decided to do what we need to do and initially I worked with the Barb Houser and Marvin Isgur.

00:43:50.209 - 00:44:10.889

both from Texas, and just to get some organization to, you know, our thoughts, and we ended up hiring the Gupta law firm who represented the association and our pay raise litigation earlier and they helped us, write a significant and

00:44:10.889 - 00:44:25.219

I think thorough letter for me to send to the director. Which I think indicated a lot of good reasons and a lot of good, a lot of support us getting paid and and reasons, you know, if we're gonna work in the systems needed during the period

00:44:25.219 - 00:44:42.290

of time, but also I think it indicated that, you know, we're pretty serious about this as a matter of law that, and thankfully the director that was enough for him to, I believe, do what he wanted to do, which was support us getting

00:44:42.290 - 00:44:58.550

paid. So, Yeah, and, and I, I think I know that the legislative committees asked for that letter and that research again because we have that might be an annual kind of an issue in this, in our climate, you know. So that was the, that was a

00:44:58.550 - 00:45:14.120

big issue that obviously I say this about my career. I believe I'm not much, but I know how to get good people to help me. And I had great people working on that and that was the judges, which led them to the law firm did

00:45:14.120 - 00:45:32.479

great outstanding work in the executive committee, you know, that as judge, I, we probably call an executive committee conference call. We probably have one every week or two weeks. I think it was every day for a while. better thinkers, right. I had to have the

00:45:32.479 - 00:45:46.080

advice of smarter people so for us to move forward. But that was a big deal and then the conference was Well, we'll get to the conference in a minute, but you are a tremendous leader on that, on that issue, so thank you for that. It

00:45:46.080 - 00:46:01.159

was a bit, it made a big difference to the bankruptcy judges because there was a real, real concern there. OK, so let's go to some high, high, what, what, let's go to the opposite end of the spectrum. Was there anything that you

00:46:01.159 - 00:46:18.810

thought was hysterical or really funny or that happened during your term? Well, I, I wish there was, but I don't really think, I really can't recall anything that I, I think it was a lot of work as president during that term, it

00:46:18.810 - 00:46:39.560

was a different, if it, it was a, I think the, I'm very pleased to see how the, association is organized now and the support you receive from the firm that serves as a director and and and I think, I think so I think

00:46:39.560 - 00:46:54.750

it was a it was a busy time for me and I was I'm again thankful to you and others who gave me good advice to get through it because for the most part it was just trying to fulfill the obligation and still maintain my work

00:46:54.750 - 00:47:13.679

day job. day job very I think, I think, Mary, Reduced your case load when she was judge and I thought, well, after the fact I thought well that's probably a good idea. You got too late now, but yeah, that would have been a great idea. Yeah,

00:47:13.770 - 00:47:36.270

I hear you. So what, is there anything that you would, any decision you made as president that you would change if you had the opportunity to go back? Probably. OK, that's fair. We don't have to go further than that. I probably would.

00:47:36.389 - 00:47:55.070

I think I would probably, I would probably, it's a funny thing. I think sometimes you think this is about decisions. I probably would not have worked as hard to be so concerned about some things. I would probably, again, it's not means you wouldn't get

00:47:55.070 - 00:48:10.949

it done. But I think that I really tried to, I really had some initiatives. One of my initiatives that I expressed early on was to improve the web page and that just could not get done. And, and I, I, it couldn't get done because, I mean,

00:48:10.989 - 00:48:26.439

I think the person, I remember the person the director relied on for technology was In those days, a single person and I, I was told that person was sick from October through January and then I was told, well, now we need to work on the conference

00:48:26.439 - 00:48:45.100

and so we really didn't get a lot done to improve the web page and now fabulous work has been done to improve that. So, so no. I think, I think, Maybe I don't know how I could consult more with my colleagues on my

00:48:45.100 - 00:48:58.120

service than I did. So anyway, I think I can't, I probably should have done things a little different, but I can't call out any particular thing. Yeah, well, I think you did a great job. So now, let's turn to your annual meeting. So first

00:48:58.120 - 00:49:20.239

we know you made a brilliant decision by asking Michelle Harner to be your educational chair. So where was your conference? In Washington DC. it was, a disadvantage. It was over the same, so, so during, during our conference was a Halloween holiday. So that, that

00:49:20.239 - 00:49:42.260

affected a little bit, our attendance, I think, but we did some, due principally to active committees we had some, we, we made some efforts to do some things differently. Then we'd done one of the things I had done with the committees is, is

00:49:42.260 - 00:50:01.860

that's we, we created for the first time the committee on the annual meeting, like what's called CAM now. Before that, we had, before that, you had the Education Committee which focused on the, the schedule and the program and really the director for the most part

00:50:01.860 - 00:50:23.510

handled everything else. So the director does have to handle all the economics and all the logistics, but in terms of, you know, I think CAM has been You know, they created an all around program which we still, you still use they correct, they emphasize

00:50:23.510 - 00:50:42.530

things that, you know, the breaks to try to really get the judges available to, to the lawyers sooner or more and those things. We, the Public Outreach Committee for the first time. and this kind of goes along with my and your, I think,

00:50:42.540 - 00:50:59.659

you know, passions, and as for the first time we wanted to do a public outreach with our host city and and that is we wanted to community to create a community project where we contributed in some way back to the city. So in

00:50:59.659 - 00:51:14.469

Washington it was homeless. And so you might remember Gene came up with the idea of the sock contributions, bringing socks and then collecting money and everything, but the main point of that was the idea and other organizations have done it, but I don't think we

00:51:14.469 - 00:51:31.870

had done it before then and that was, you, you give back to the community in some financial service way. And I believe we've continued to do that and I'm, I'm very proud that's been, you know, they continued to do, to do that. So those are

00:51:31.870 - 00:51:49.159

some of the things that I thought we, we've done, we did for the first time and we're successful. I think the education program was absolutely great. We were very fortunate to have a Supreme Court justice come. We kept saying we don't understand. It's about

00:51:49.159 - 00:52:04.594

a couple blocks. You can walk. You can come over. It's not a big trip so far, not so far, but you still, they were. Sort of out of coming to our conference and Justice Gorsuch came primarily, I think, to his the connection with Justice Judge

00:52:04.594 - 00:52:22.754

Romero, who because Justice Gorsuch was from Denver, I believe, and served in Colorado. So he came over and I thought that was an important contribution, I do have to, it's, it's personal, but I think it's important if we're gonna record the history,

00:52:24.040 - 00:52:40.159

about, about 20 days prior to the beginning of the conference, and this I hope is not, it's not too personal to say, but I found out that I had, the cancer and the intestinal. I had an intestinal infection that took me to the hospital and

00:52:40.159 - 00:52:58.070

I found out that I had a 15 centimeter cancer tumor in my chest. And two things happened as a result. One, I lost about 20 pounds in, in 20 days before the conference started, and they told me that I had to have immediate surgery, and

00:52:58.070 - 00:53:10.879

I, I prevailed upon the doctor. I said, well, the most important thing in my career is coming up, and I can it wait. And so I had surgery two days after I returned from the conclusion of our conference. I went, I had to be there 5

00:53:10.879 - 00:53:26.939

o'clock in the morning and had surgery, and so the reason, the reason I mentioned it was not anything about me except I was pretty whipped and exhausted, not only from loss of weight, but emotionally, and, and I had a tough time, but I was most, most proud

00:53:26.939 - 00:53:43.929

that every single member of my family, all my children and my grandchildren, everybody came to the conference and we, we had, I think it was a successful conference primarily due to Michelle and And the director's work and, and all the committees that, that really

00:53:43.929 - 00:54:02.040

stepped up for our awards. I thought I, I was very pleased with the people that were recognized at our conference because we're able to get an award to Jim Duff, who was retiring. And so a very nice crystal eagle that I think that he really,

00:54:02.110 - 00:54:22.600

really appreciated personally. We did the same for Sam Giordano, who was retiring after so many years of working with the judges and support. Michelle Harner, of course, was recognized because she's great and, and then Marcia Parsons, who's our very good friend who worked forever and

00:54:22.600 - 00:54:42.370

so hard. Behind the scenes doing awards and other things and and I always tell Marsha I said of all those great luminaries that received awards, the person that received the standing ovation was you. That's right, she's such a dear, dear person and so it was

00:54:42.370 - 00:54:59.540

so helpful to me. She was one of the ones like you who was just sort of sometimes would just listen to me and when I would have a, you know, so, so she's a, I was very happy with all that, although, of course, dozens

00:54:59.540 - 00:55:16.870

and dozens of people deserve to be recognized. But we made it through the conference, I think it was a success. It was an incredible success and you kept from all of us, including me, your illness, and I just, so it was a wonderful conference

00:55:16.870 - 00:55:32.300

and although I appreciate you recognizing Michelle, it was a wonderful conference because of all the work and Jeanne, but our exe our then executive director, but it was a wonderful conference because of your vision and your leadership. And I thought it was a fantastic conference,

00:55:32.350 - 00:55:47.735

even though you wouldn't let me give you any joke gifts other than you allowed me to give you a stuffed alligator. That was it. One thing. I mean, I had a whole, a whole plan and you would only let me do that, but that's OK. I

00:55:47.735 - 00:56:05.995

was so, so thankful for you and Mike Romero to be, I mean, y'all help me so much, you know, and, and like I was, you're the bookends to my term as president and, and no no two better people in the world, so I appreciated that.

00:56:06.415 - 00:56:22.790

I remember we also tried, I know time's short, but We, we made an effort to attract 13 consumer debtor lawyers to our conference and we had a special Saturday session to try to bring them in because they really do feel I probably

00:56:22.790 - 00:56:38.120

as well as you are close to that type of practice and they, they really feel like they're the red-headed stepchildren from the judiciary's view, and we needed, we needed then I think we continually make an effort to try to bring them into our

00:56:38.120 - 00:56:55.419

conference and make them feel welcome and so you know, I think that should be something that we continue to try to do. Yeah, there, there's a continuing effort to, to, to do that and I do want to highlight before

00:56:55.419 - 00:57:14.469

we move off of the annual meeting that you did in fact create. A legacy regarding the public outreach programs in every conference, including mine, which was virtual, we have had some type of public service, a public outreach event with the host city, so that's

00:57:14.469 - 00:57:32.850

a tradition that you created that's 1 of the many John Waites gifts to the National Conference of Bankruptcy Judges. So thank you for that. So let's, before we say goodbye, do you have any thoughts or insights or any final words you wanted to

00:57:32.850 - 00:57:51.530

share with your bankruptcy colleagues regarding the NCBJ or your bankruptcy career or service as a judge? Well, you heard how lucky I was to sort of wind up in the position and And get to get to serve for so many years, but I

00:57:51.530 - 00:58:13.780

would say just enjoy it. Don't, don't, you know, don't, work so hard that you either, you know, don't get involved in or other organizations as president in other capacities as you did, you get to, you get involved in the American college, you get involved

00:58:13.780 - 00:58:32.149

in ABI. organization you get involved in Chapter 13 or chapter or trustee organizations and I think these are great in life enriching things and professionally enriching, enriching things. And so I think, you know, step out of, step out of your local district and get involved and,

00:58:32.260 - 00:58:51.479

and you don't have to take, assume great responsibility. Just be present and, and absorb and, and get to know people and it, it, it, it, it, it's a service to your position. As a judge, I think to be open and to be friendly and

00:58:51.479 - 00:59:06.699

to be receptive to other people and, and their ideas. So that's, that's That's been a great benefit to me. So that's what I would say to someone else. Well, thank you for that and thank you, Judge Waites for taking the time to be here today and

00:59:06.699 - 00:59:22.370

to share your experiences with all of us, And we look forward to many more opportunities to see you at the annual meetings where you can hang out and you don't have to do any work. Just enjoy yourself. I would say there's no better person

00:59:22.370 - 00:59:28.370

that I would enjoy doing this conversation with you. I thank you very much, you're a dear friend. Thank you.