00:00:02.680 - 00:00:34.729

in progress. On the top. OK. All right, sorry. Now we're recording. All right, go ahead. Bye-bye. Thank you. Thanks. Hello, my name is Joan Feeney. I am conducting the interview of Judge Judith K. Fitzgerald of the Western District of Pennsylvania for the NCBJ 100th anniversary

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Committee. Judge Fitzgerald, thank you so much for submitting to this interview. Could you please tell us when you became a bankruptcy judge? Yes, I was sworn into office on October 31st of 1987 and retired on May 31st of 2013. Now I understand that your

00:01:02.889 - 00:01:24.839

Locality was the Western District of Pennsylvania, that was your origin of office, but you sat in other districts, correct? Yes. The Third Circuit had a dearth of bankruptcy judges in various places, and so I was designated to sit in the District of Delaware, the

00:01:25.040 - 00:01:42.919

the eastern District of Pennsylvania, which was Philadelphia and Reading, and the District of the Virgin Islands. It was a lot of fun. That must have been exciting. I don't think a lot of, I don't think a lot of people know that the District of the

00:01:42.919 - 00:02:07.580

Virgin Islands is in the Western District of Pennsylvania. Well, it's in the 3rd Circuit. I see. Yeah. And how many years did you serve as a bankruptcy judge? Almost 26, 25.5. Were you a bankruptcy lawyer prior to your appointment as a bankruptcy judge? Not really.

00:02:07.819 - 00:02:27.770

My background was as an assistant United States attorney, and so primarily I did criminal prosecution and civil defense work. I did do some bankruptcy work for, you know, representing agencies of the federal government, but the Internal Revenue Service had their own lawyers who came in

00:02:27.770 - 00:02:46.324

and generally, the Small Business Administration would have its own lawyers, and that at the time when I was in practice, those were the agencies that had most exposure to bankruptcy in western Pennsylvania. So I did do a little bit of bankruptcy work, but I certainly

00:02:46.324 - 00:03:08.369

would never have considered myself to be a bankruptcy lawyer. Were there merit screening panels at at the time that you were appointed? Oh yes, yes, there, there was a merit screening panel of lawyers, not judges, just lawyers, and then they made recommendations to, I

00:03:08.369 - 00:03:35.110

believe the district court, and then the district court in turn made recommendations to the circuit and some of the district court judges actually sat on the panel when I was interviewed by the circuit. In accordance with the, the judicial code, the circuit did appoint you,

00:03:35.860 - 00:03:56.919

correct? Oh yes, twice. You served 2 terms, almost almost 2, yeah, the second one was um a bit fraught with terror for a moment because the circuit misunderstood my original date of appointment, and as a result, they were trying to start my second term a

00:03:56.919 - 00:04:11.580

day after it should have been started, and as a result, I would have had a break in service, which was a nightmare, but they quickly corrected it when it was brought to their attention, so it all worked out fine. I'm glad that didn't affect your retirement

00:04:11.580 - 00:04:33.230

benefits. What was your path to the bankruptcy bench? I was a supervisor in of the Erie US Attorney's office, and we were actually in the process of moving to Erie. It's about a 2 to 2.5 hour each way commute, so it's getting a little bit

00:04:33.390 - 00:04:52.390

difficult to supervise that office from Pittsburgh. When the position came open, it was a new position at the time. There had been 3 authorized judgeships and this would have made the 4th. And the caseload was essentially blooming at the time. There were a lot of

00:04:52.649 - 00:05:13.029

coal companies and steel mills that were filing bankruptcy with a lot of consumer cases as fallout. And so the circuit got Congress to authorize a fourth judgeship, and then the application process went forward from there. So I went directly from the US Attorney's office onto the

00:05:13.029 - 00:05:34.989

bench. What was your case load like? You know, it varied from time to time. My case load in western Pennsylvania was relatively consistent except for 2004, when the 2005 amendments were about to take place when it just went skyrocketed because of the number of 13s that

00:05:34.989 - 00:05:53.700

were filed. But at one point, I was actually sitting in all four districts at the same time, and as a result, at one point I had 11,000 cases on my docket. That was sort of a nightmare. I did, they did give me extra help, law clerk

00:05:53.700 - 00:06:09.140

help, for that reason. So that was a big help, but it, it was still a lot. Now, a lot of them were 13s, and as a result, you know, they last for 3 to 5 years. So your case load looks as though it's, I

00:06:09.140 - 00:06:30.230

guess, inflated in a way because you're not really handling much in, in those cases, but There were an awful lot of 11s, particularly mass tort cases, asbestos, silica dust, and so forth, and they're pretty intense. How did you manage to get the work done with

00:06:30.230 - 00:06:49.559

the case load of that many cases? I had great clerks. I, instead of having a secretary for a lot of that time, I had a person who acted as a secretary, but also as a law clerk, a lawyer. The fact that the circuit gave

00:06:49.559 - 00:07:06.329

me extra help, I was lucky to have externs come in from the law schools and they helped, so you, you know, you do what you have to do. I had to do it, so we got it done. In addition to the case load, what

00:07:06.329 - 00:07:30.190

were some of the other challenges in your time on the bench? Mm. Well, I, I think the 2005 amendments were actually a challenge because they were underway for so long, and I can't remember exactly when they started, you probably have a better recollection, but sometime

00:07:30.190 - 00:07:48.170

like in 1999 or 2000 I think. Yeah, it was pending in Congress for eight years as I recall. And so, you know, we're always trying to stay ahead of the curve and trying to figure out how to staff for what we expected to be substantial

00:07:48.170 - 00:08:04.690

changes. That was one. Second, I think was the fact that we went through so many different automation changes, you know, we had Nibs and then we had something else. I can't even remember what it was called now, and then we went to CM/ECF and I was

00:08:04.690 - 00:08:27.730

fortunate to be on one of the Federal Court offices participating in the process by which CM/ECF came into existence. And so our court was being used as a beta test for some of those things, and that was challenging too. You know, when

00:08:27.730 - 00:08:43.869

I first got on the bench, we didn't even have computers, you know, we were fortunate to have electric typewriters, which at least had some memory function. But we didn't have computers and so the onset of computers and the fact that the clerks were able to

00:08:43.869 - 00:08:59.580

use them for data compilation, I think was a big help eventually. But originally, you know, if you wanted to look at a case, you had to pull the the actual physical docket and go through the papers and there were no indexes on the papers, so it

00:08:59.580 - 00:09:20.109

was pretty time consuming. Computers helped a lot. So when you were appointed, there were paper dockets and paper case files. That's right. And when did you make the change to electronic filing? Honest, well, we were one of the first courts, but I don't recall

00:09:20.109 - 00:09:39.179

the year. I should have looked that up, I guess, but I don't remember. I think it was around 2000-2001, because I think it was going on just about the time that I was NCBJ president, which was 2001 to 2002. And I know we were at least

00:09:39.179 - 00:09:57.539

involved in the process by which the reports that we were creating for bankruptcy judges were ongoing at that time, so I'm pretty sure it was in that time frame, but sorry, I don't, I just don't recall the specifics now. When did you become involved in the

00:09:57.539 - 00:10:16.780

National Conference of Bankruptcy Judges? Very shortly after my appointment, because one of my colleagues, Judge Joseph Cosetti was very active in the NCBJ and he sort of grabbed me by the arm one day and said, here, here's the person you need to contact, do

00:10:16.780 - 00:10:39.859

it now. And so I did, and so it was pretty, pretty soon after I was sworn in. In addition to Judge Cosetti, who I fondly remember from the annual meeting, who were your mentors in the NCBJ? I think I'd have to attribute that primarily

00:10:39.859 - 00:11:00.590

to Connie Duberstein. He went out of his way really to sort of give me some helpful advice and you, you know, Connie was such a gentleman and so much fun in every respect that you could ask him anything and get a humorous answer with a

00:11:00.590 - 00:11:17.020

serious component to it, so I would, I would say he was one. For a while, I think I relied on George Payne a lot, which, you know, maybe I shouldn't admit on a public record. I don't know. Of course I'm being facetious.

00:11:17.340 - 00:11:33.570

George was a really big help, you know, he knew the ins and outs of the NCBJ and could answer questions about how to get involved in various aspects of it, and I think I would say thanks to him too. Did you regularly attend the NCBJ

00:11:33.570 - 00:11:50.599

meetings once you were appointed? Yes, I missed very few. I missed one because one of my in-laws died, and so that was kind of a sudden, you know, reason not to go. And I missed one because I had a baby very recently and was not

00:11:50.599 - 00:12:06.500

at a, in a position to go to the meeting that year. And other than that, you know, I think I may have missed one other, but for the most part, yes, I was pretty much in regular attendance. Look, it's a great organization. You

00:12:06.500 - 00:12:25.340

know, if you're going to join, then you should take advantage of going to those meetings because the networking that you can do with your colleagues all across the country is absolutely fabulous. In addition to the good that the NCBJ does on its own for keeping up

00:12:25.340 - 00:12:46.320

with legislative activities and education. You know, that networking component is really, I think maybe the best part of the organization. You have friends all across the country and beyond, actually beyond, as a result of the NCBJ. So, once I realized that that was the

00:12:46.320 - 00:13:09.130

case, then I wanted to be actively involved. When you became actively involved and eventually a leader of the association, what committees, did you work on? I think I was on almost every committee at some point in time. I was on the endowment. I

00:13:09.130 - 00:13:31.780

was the treasurer for a number of years. I was eventually an associate editor for the ABLJ. I was on the conference committees looking to the future. I was on finance, I'm sure. I'm sure if I went back through records, which I haven't done

00:13:31.780 - 00:13:59.729

that I served on pretty much every committee, not legislative. I don't think I was ever on a legislative committee. When did you become NCBJ president? 2001 and 2002. Where was the conference held that year? In Chicago, where it's going to be this year, so. Yeah,

00:13:59.770 - 00:14:19.710

the conference news, you know, has written a nice article, two parts. The first part was just published about Chicago and the conferences, so I'm looking forward to see what they come up with. Kathleen comes up with for the 2002 conference. I remember, at

00:14:19.710 - 00:14:43.609

the previous year's conference, seeing a video and hearing you, ask that people attend and you sang the Frank Sinatra tune Chicago. Yeah. Who came up with that idea? Actually I was talking with the, the people who did the audio visual, and

00:14:43.609 - 00:14:56.650

Mike specifically was one of the people, and I don't know, he had heard me sing somewhere, and he said you ought to sing this. I said, yeah, yeah, sure. And eventually we just talked about it and I said, look, I'll record this, but it's really awful,

00:14:56.690 - 00:15:14.299

we're not going to use it and I thought it was pretty bad, but he thought we could use it, so. They thought it was great and you have a beautiful voice. Well, thanks. Do you have any advice for new judges or younger judges who

00:15:14.299 - 00:15:35.609

aren't members of the NCBJ about the advantages of becoming involved in NCBJ? You alluded to the networking opportunities. Are there any other reasons? Oh my heavens. I can't think of a reason not to join this organization, you know, it's your trade organization and to keep up

00:15:35.609 - 00:15:54.210

with what's happening all across the country, there is no better way than to join the NCBJ and make the friends so that if you have an issue that involves a law of another jurisdiction, you can call. Clearly the legislative committee does yeoman's service and keeps

00:15:54.210 - 00:16:12.869

everybody up to speed on anything that's relevant to being a judge, particularly a bankruptcy judge. I think if it had not been for the NCBJ, we probably wouldn't have the wonderful retirement benefits that we have. And so supporting an organization that works so hard for

00:16:12.869 - 00:16:32.450

you, I think is a very important thing for every judge to do. So I can't say enough good things. If anybody wants any more specifics, have them call me. I'll do my best to talk them into joining. That's a wonderful offer. Thank you. Were

00:16:32.450 - 00:16:59.119

there any themes that you had during your year as president or during your year as incoming president of the association? Themes for education or? For anything, education or for advancement of judges, anything you can think of? Well, two things, in terms of the

00:16:59.119 - 00:17:23.050

advancement of judges, it was really looking at potential retirement issues, you know. Some magistrate judges, particularly, had been retiring and going into mediation services, and I wanted to assure that bankruptcy judges would have that same opportunity since our retirement benefits are, you know, pretty much

00:17:23.050 - 00:17:41.550

the same. And so I started the push, didn't end it that year, but started the push to try to get the judicial conference to recognize that the practice of mediation is not the practice of law, so that if you went into the mediation after retirement, you

00:17:41.550 - 00:18:01.709

wouldn't lose your COLAs, which can be substantial. Of course, as you know, that effort eventually failed, but nonetheless, that was one thing that we began while I was president. On the education side, Tom Waldron, from Dayton, Ohio was my education chair,

00:18:02.079 - 00:18:18.760

and we had a lot of conversations about what the panel should encompass and who should be on them and, you know, that sort of thing, but the one thing I said that I wanted was at least one practice hint, going to practitioners who would attend

00:18:18.760 - 00:18:34.670

the meeting for every single program that we had. And the fact that he was able to put together the panels that came up with those practice hints I thought was absolutely wonderful. So I guess if I had a theme, it was that I wanted to build

00:18:35.030 - 00:18:55.869

relationships between judges and the practitioners who came. I wanted to figure out a way to start getting younger associates in, which actually didn't come to fruition until Randy Dunn was president and was willing to take on the next generation system that I came up with,

00:18:56.199 - 00:19:13.819

but it had been sort of niggling in at me for a long time before I could figure it out. But I really wanted to to bring the lawyers more into the organization as a whole, so that they were coming and having a good

00:19:13.819 - 00:19:38.140

time because that's, you know, networking is a lot of what happens at conferences and so I, that's what I was attempting to do to build relationships between the bench and bar. Now known as the NextGen program, how did you develop that idea? I

00:19:38.140 - 00:19:54.859

don't know. It just took a lot of thought. It seemed, and I started talking to a lot of lawyers, from around the country, really, about what it would take to interest them in bringing younger people because the conference is expensive and as it was and

00:19:54.859 - 00:20:14.660

many times. you would see a lot of the senior partners coming, but not necessarily younger associates or younger partners. And I thought for the sake of continuity of the organization, we needed to develop something that would bring in younger people. And so I started talking to

00:20:14.660 - 00:20:29.260

them about what it would take. And I got a couple of ideas back from them that were pretty unanimous. One, for example, was that it had to have some exclusivity to it. It couldn't just be open to the world every year. It had to be limited

00:20:29.260 - 00:20:46.479

in scope every year, to run forever, but, you know, there had to be some parameters, and eventually they sort of told me that not more than 10 years in practice, probably more like 5, but 5 to 10 years in practice because they wanted to be sure

00:20:46.479 - 00:21:03.719

that the associates or the young partners were really practicing insolvency law and would benefit from the conference if they were going to go out on a limb like that. Then I started talking to the judges to see whether if we brought in these younger associates, we

00:21:03.719 - 00:21:20.609

could do something exclusive for them with the judges so that they would have an opportunity to talk with judges one on one. And you know, it's different being on the bench than it is in practice, and your attitudes and approaches have to change because you're not

00:21:20.609 - 00:21:35.709

representing a client anymore. You're looking at all of the evidence and trying to, to be fair, to fairly judge what it is that you're hearing, and I thought it would be beneficial for young people to get some insights from the bench. So when those two things

00:21:35.709 - 00:21:51.310

started to come together, then I asked a number of people to form an informal committee and see what we could do. And then I approached Randy, who was going to be the president, and say, and said, look, I've got this idea. Here's what I've done

00:21:51.310 - 00:22:11.449

so far. Would you run with it? And he said, yes. So now we have an NextGen committee. Well, it's been one of the most successful programs of the NCBJ. It's existed for almost 20 years, I, I believe, and we thank you for being

00:22:11.449 - 00:22:33.489

its creator and brainchild. Many of the NextGen alums have developed their own network and they meet every year at the NCBJ and it has really brought many more young people into the NCBJ annual meeting. So thank you, Judge Fitzgerald. That, that's good. That's

00:22:33.489 - 00:22:51.010

what it's supposed to do, so let's hope it keeps up. I think that, you know, the committee's done a wonderful job of changing the methods by which people come in and the activities that are available for them, and that I think is really helpful because

00:22:51.010 - 00:23:09.000

you can't be in a rut. You've got to keep up with the practice and what people want to do and the success of committees and the alums really they participated very actively, so I think thanks belong to them. Do you remember

00:23:09.000 - 00:23:29.839

what some of the educational programs were during your annual NCBJ in Chicago? Yeah, that's a funny question, I think because it shows that what goes around comes round in many, many respects. We were looking at, of course, that ethics issues, but at

00:23:29.839 - 00:23:49.069

the time it had to do with Rule 9011 and deficient filings. And so that was one thing that that seems to keep raising its head from time to time. We were looking at DNO liability. And that of course is at least from my practice right

00:23:49.069 - 00:24:09.310

now, a significant issue that keeps popping back up. We were looking at professional partnership dissolutions and how they may or may not be impacted by the financial insolvency or solvency. We were looking at cash collateral orders, which to this day, because of the changing

00:24:09.310 - 00:24:33.219

financial methods that people use, are still, I think important. We had a panel on non-professional fees because a lot of the professionals who are authorized to practice in the bankruptcy courts are not lawyers, they're financial advisors. Accountants and real estate brokers and whatever,

00:24:33.640 - 00:24:50.199

and that I think comes up from time to time. And the one panel that um I think may have been topical at that time and may not be now was we had a panel on what happens now that LaSalle has been decided. The Supreme Court

00:24:50.199 - 00:25:12.170

had decided the case in May, I think, of 1999, and we were looking at 2002. And in that time frame cases had come down that relied on LaSalle, so one of the panels dealt with that. So yeah, I thought I think was a large real

00:25:12.170 - 00:25:33.930

estate cases and provisions of a Chapter 11 plan. Yes, yeah, most of the, most of the education panels were designed to look at chapter 11s at the time because most of the people who attended were Chapter 11 practitioners, not so much consumer then. Do you remember

00:25:33.930 - 00:25:56.550

how many attendees there were at the Chicago conference in 2002? I don't. I think it was in the vicinity of 2500. I could ask Chris Mallick, she'd know, but I don't remember. I know at the time it was the largest attendance, but I think

00:25:56.550 - 00:26:22.599

Jim Gregg's conference the next year may have had more people. I think it's in the top three. I think it's in the top 3, and your estimate is pretty close. Oh, you know the numbers. The NCBJ every year meets on governance issues.

00:26:22.630 - 00:26:52.719

Do you remember what the internal issues of the day when you were a leader were? As treasurer, I was concerned that we were using Resources from the upcoming conference, not from the past conferences for the NCBJ to sustain itself. And so as president,

00:26:52.880 - 00:27:14.030

I, I went from treasurer to president elected to president. As president, I wanted to make sure that we maintained and stayed ahead of the financial curve, and so we set up a reserve at that time for future conferences. That was one. The second thing

00:27:14.030 - 00:27:36.060

was endowment funding because, you know, we needed to make sure that the financial resources were sufficient to keep funding the endowment, which all of us in the leadership felt was an important thing to do at the time. So I think most of the issues

00:27:36.060 - 00:27:54.750

related really to finance, plus the fact that I was asking all of the judges to please be an ambassador and, you know, thank people for coming to the NCBJ so that we knew, or they knew, I should say that the judges really appreciate the fact that lawyers

00:27:54.750 - 00:28:11.260

come. Because it is a good time to find out what's really going on, not in your specific cases, but in the world at large. So I would say those were the two things that come to mind, plus the mediation issue that I talked about,

00:28:11.270 - 00:28:33.109

but that wasn't really an internal governance. It was more of a Can we do anything about this for retired judges issue? We can talk about that a little bit later. What stands out as one or more amusing moments of um your presidency or leadership in the

00:28:33.109 - 00:28:54.510

NCBJ? One of, well, two amusing things happened, I think, the night that I was turning the gavel over to Jim Gregg. One is that an accountant that I had some seminar involvement with in the past, used to tease me about the fact

00:28:54.510 - 00:29:11.160

that I was fighting the fighting judge, so he brought to the conference an actual silk fighter's rope with my name on the back and. Basically, you know, dressed me in it at the conference. I thought that was pretty funny. I got a big kick out of

00:29:11.160 - 00:29:29.849

that. I was there it was. And the other thing that that comes to mind right now was, was Jim. Jim was trying to figure out what a nice gift would be for me. We, you know, we were friends in addition to, to colleagues. He found the

00:29:29.849 - 00:29:45.329

biggest key lime pie I've ever seen in my life. It wouldn't fit in a refrigerator. It wouldn't fit anywhere. It was like the size of a small table top. And so he brought that up to the suite, and we all enjoyed that. And then there was

00:29:45.329 - 00:30:04.140

still so much left, so there was still so much left over. I had no idea what to do with the rest of this. So I think those two things were pretty funny. More seriously, were there any challenging issues that you found difficult to

00:30:04.140 - 00:30:23.560

make decisions about during your presidency or time as treasurer? Well, the time is treasurer, the, the issue really was how are we going to, you know, get on a path to sustain solvency. It would be a little embarrassing for the National Conference of bankruptcy judges to

00:30:24.079 - 00:30:45.760

have financial difficulties. And so that was the plan. The plan was to make sure that we were on a sound fiscal path. And, you know, the board was the board the boards plural, were very supportive of that. Honestly, as president, I don't recall having anything

00:30:45.760 - 00:31:06.530

that came to mind that somebody didn't jump up and agree to take on as an issue and. You know, everything basically went to the board except for conference decisions themselves, and it was, I, I think pretty cordial time. All of us were concerned

00:31:06.530 - 00:31:24.630

about, you know, what eventually became the 2005 amendments, and we had a lot of legislative issues about that. And about the numbers of judgeships because the case load at that time was still pretty high, and we were concerned that temporary judgeships may be being given

00:31:24.630 - 00:31:51.750

up rather than made permanent, but that the outcome of that didn't happen in my terms of office either. Did you have any particular proud moments as NCBJ president or leader? Hm. You know, it's funny, I've never really thought about it in that capacity. I,

00:31:51.849 - 00:32:11.650

I think what makes me proud is pride in the organization itself. It is, it, it's just such a wonderful vibrant organization and to have been chosen to lead it. For a year I think was what I was proud of. It wasn't so much accomplishments or what

00:32:11.650 - 00:32:30.689

happened during that year. It's the fact that my colleagues had enough confidence in me to, you know, to vest me with that office, I think was if there was pride involved, it was that. Well, we were very proud of your presidency, because of the

00:32:30.689 - 00:32:56.219

fiscal legacy that, that you left and the fantastic conference and also your founding of the NextGen program. So you have a wonderful legacy that we're very proud of. Do you have any advice to new bankruptcy judges either about the judicial office

00:32:56.219 - 00:33:18.000

or about involvement in the NCBJ. You know, I was, when I got this job and I got the job of bankruptcy judge, I had a discussion with Carol Los Mansmann who was on the circuit, 3rd Circuit at that time. And I said to her,

00:33:18.329 - 00:33:36.699

I'm sort of terrified. I just don't know that I have a qualification for this. I mean, I've applied for it. I think I'm qualified, but I'm scared to death. And she said, You know, you're appointed because you have good instincts, you've got the background that

00:33:36.699 - 00:33:54.579

you need. You may not know it now, but you will know it when as time goes by. So trust yourself. She said, trust yourself. She's, you're gonna make mistakes, everybody does, you know, you're going to get reversed at some point, probably, most judges do, but don't

00:33:54.579 - 00:34:10.699

worry about that because if the issue that you have to write something on that goes on appeal was not subject to a position where reasonable minds could differ, then there wouldn't be any need for an appeal. There wouldn't be any need for for the issue to

00:34:10.699 - 00:34:31.745

come up before court at all. So I think I'd pass that sort of wisdom on to new judges that yes, your acumen in as bankruptcy practitioners certainly has something to do with your being on. the bench, but that isn't all of it. The, the point really

00:34:31.745 - 00:34:47.148

is you're there to call balls and strikes, but you're to do it based on the evidence that's presented and in the fairest way that you can. So you have tough decisions to make. Not everybody's going to win. Some people will lose, sometimes you can get settlements

00:34:47.148 - 00:35:11.979

one way or another that are, you know, helpful for everyone, but not always. And so you just have to do the best you can with the evidence that's presented to you. When you retired, you decided to become a mediator and also join

00:35:11.979 - 00:35:32.879

a, a law firm. What led you to that decision? Well, actually, when I retired, I accepted a full professorship at a new law school that was in existence. And I liked the teaching part of it a lot, but I really didn't like the other administrative

00:35:32.879 - 00:35:49.239

duties that went along with it so much. I was kind of tired of administrative duties, I guess. And so, and I had a, a person in my family with some health issues and traveling back and forth to the law school and and home to try

00:35:49.239 - 00:36:06.820

to address those issues just became too much. It it was more than I could take, so. That's what led me to decide that I would look into going back into practice, and I did. I interviewed quite a few places, but I chose one close

00:36:06.820 - 00:36:23.149

to home in Pittsburgh. I knew the, a lot, not all of the partners there, from the interviews that went on, I liked them a lot. I trusted their ethics, which to me was an important reason why I was choosing a firm that I was

00:36:23.149 - 00:36:43.489

going to to be with, hopefully for the rest of my career. And so that's what led me to Tucker. What is your practice now? It's still largely mediation arbitration, but I do a lot of expert witness work both in the mass tort area

00:36:43.489 - 00:37:05.889

in for any party that's involved. I'm not restricted, for example, to debtors or creditors or trustees. I'm consulted by many of those parties and I do quite a bit of expert witness work in legal malpractice areas, particularly involving, you know, ethical breaches of or

00:37:05.889 - 00:37:29.229

professional responsibility breaches of one sort or another. And of course, although the professional responsibility issues in most jurisdictions are not grounds for malpractice claims, nonetheless, we pretty much look to those issues because we all practice by them and so they're good guideposts, I guess, for

00:37:29.229 - 00:37:52.629

malpractice cases. Judge Fitzgerald, do you have any advice for new bankruptcy judges? Other than joining the NCBJ and what I think I've already explained in terms of, you know, being active, you know, maybe I do. Maybe I should back up a minute. I think

00:37:52.629 - 00:38:13.320

it's important to be active in professional organizations, period, not just the NCBJ. I certainly highly recommend the NCBJ, but it's important to be out there sort of giving back to the community that chose you to be in this very, very special honored role. And to participate

00:38:13.320 - 00:38:34.530

in education seminars so that people get the value of your insights. Judges have a lot of time to spend researching and reading and thinking that lawyers don't necessarily always have that luxury when they're in the throes of litigation. And so I think it's important for judges

00:38:34.530 - 00:38:55.239

to be out in the community, the professional community, sort of giving back to the community that has honored them by putting them on the bench. So I'd encourage. new judges to be involved locally and nationally, and stay in touch with practitioners, obviously not in

00:38:55.239 - 00:39:13.949

the not specifically in the cases that you're presiding over, but in general terms. And the other thing I'd suggest to them is, you know, my entertainment that year was Creedence Clearwater Revival, and I would suggest that they listen to a lot of that great music.

00:39:15.659 - 00:39:35.429

And have fun with it. Well, I copied you because they were my entertainment too in 2012. Well, Judge Fitzgerald, you have shown us why you are, an icon as a bankruptcy judge and in the bankruptcy field, and we thank you so much for sharing

00:39:35.709 - 00:39:53.969

your thoughts and insights with us today. Thank you, Joan. I very much appreciate the opportunity to have spoken with you in this kind of level, and I'm very much going to to look forward to listening to your interview when it comes up. Thank you. Thank

00:39:53.969 - 00:40:06.320

you, everyone. Goodbye. Thanks everyone. OK, I stopped the oops, stopped the recording and stopped you too.