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Well, I want everything set up properly for Chief Justice, uh, or Chief Judge Romero. I'm Bill Thurman. I'm a bankruptcy judge in Salt Lake City at the present time, which is in May of 2025. And I have the privilege of conducting an

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interview with my good friend and colleague, the Honorable Michael E. Romero, who sits in Denver. And the reason we're, we're doing this is, is twofold. One, the Historical Society of the 10th Circuit likes to get, information and videos and they'll archive those for

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strategic purposes, and we've done some of those before. But more importantly, , and maybe just as importantly, the NCBJ, and National Conference of Bankruptcy Judges is, conducting a 100 year anniversary of its organization next year, 2026, and a number of judges around the

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country are being interviewed for on video to preserve the history of the bankruptcy judges and, and it, and to a certain extent, the judiciary as a whole. For future reference or fun. If anybody just gets bored and wants to look at the picture

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once in a while and see what's going on, they can come and check these out. So, and, and it's a real honor and privilege for me to conduct this with Mike. I'll, I'll call him Mike because that's what I've always called him. If that's

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OK with you, uh, Judge Romero. that absolutely works. OK. I wanna get a little bit of background on you, my friend, and then we'll get into some other details of where you are and what you're doing. Uh, and have done, which are very important.

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Tell me, where were you born originally? I was born in San Diego, California in 1955. How did you make it to Denver? My dad moved us here when I was 2, so I didn't have a whole lot of choice in it, but I've lived in Denver

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ever since then, except with the exception of 3 years in law school. OK. So how, who, who else you got in your family? You know, you got your mom and dad, and do you have any brothers and sisters? I had an older brother who's 6

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years older than me. Unfortunately, all of them have passed away previously. Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. Now, tell me, you're married to one of the loveliest people that I have ever met. And uh well, tell me for posterity purposes. Her full name. I married

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the lovely Suzanne Cynthia Ashe at the time. We were married in 1979. So we are about ready to celebrate our 45th, 46th, I can't count, wedding anniversary. That is terrific, and she is a prize, and you know that, as well as. And she has

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an interesting hobby that kind of sloughs off a little bit, with the animal kingdom, does she not? Absolutely. She raises and competes with our two dogs. She competes with them in agility and obedience. And she's been trying to train me for years.

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Unfortunately, she's a lot more successful with the animals than she is with me. That, that, that is great, and, and she is lovely. I don't think I've ever met your dog, so, you ought to bring him to the next circuit conference and get him properly

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introduced around to all the judges. I'm not sure we want to subject everyone to those two. OK. Well, OK. So, you moved to Denver after several years in San Diego, and you went to the local parochial or public schools? Public school the whole way.

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OK. And, and what part, what part of the suburb of Denver was that? I grew up in Westminster, which is a suburb immediately north of downtown Denver. It's roughly a 10 minute drive from Denver. OK. And without telling exactly your address for any, for a number

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of reasons, right now, you live somewhere in the Denver area. Is that a fair statement? I still live in Westminster, a little bit further north and a little bit further west. Uh, we live roughly halfway between Denver and Boulder for those who know the Colorado area

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well. OK, when you were going to high school, did you have any particular subjects that you kind of enjoyed more than others? Not really, I enjoyed geography. I was in school during the time when civics was still being taught, and I enjoyed that

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immensely. Terrific. Now, what, what, were there any things in your early years like high school or maybe even college that got you interested in the law? Well, my senior year, I became a messenger with one of the largest firms in Denver. I was lucky enough

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that one of the managing partners of that organization knew my parents, and they knew I had, I had an interest in law and I want to know if I wanted to see what it was like from the inside. So they literally put me at the bottom

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and I was running around town delivering messages and things like that for literally 7 years, from my senior year in high school, all during undergrad and Actually 5 years, I guess. That's interesting, you know, that, that points out the differences between one of the differences between

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Salt Lake and Denver. We're a little more rural over here, Mr. Mike. We call our people that do that runners, whereas you call a messenger. That's a little above, a not above a runner. So I understand that's only semantics, only semantics. I've

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done that too. Now, when you were in college, where'd you where'd you go to college? Went to University of Denver undergrad. That's where I met my lovely wife. Oh, what a choice experience that was, I bet. Now, when did you start,

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any interest in music, in your, in voice? I started that, actually, I've been, I played the trombone since 4th grade. So I was playing the trombone all the way through high school and through the first couple of years in college. I got interested in voice,

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actually my sophomore year in high school for a rather that's a shameful reason. Basically, I like girls and the prettiest girls were out in the choir. Well said. I, I would do the same thing if I had your skills. Now, since that time, you've

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developed into a very outstanding reputation, a very terrific vocalist. You, I've heard you sing at circuit conferences and and NCBJ events. When did you, have you, have you performed in, other things, major concerts or musicals or the like? Well, as is

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for a number of years, both, my wife is a voice performance major. So both of us for a while were in the local symphonies chorus. We were in Opera Colorado in the early years of the formation of that group, but the primary love I've

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had has been in a theater. And since high school all the way to the present day, I've been in roughly 70, 75 different performances in shows. Which one did you like the best? Ooh. Either, John Adams in 1776 or Sweeney Todd in Sweeney and that

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it the play of the same name. Oh, terrific. You wanna, I probably asked you before we started if you could hum much or sing a few bars and you declined on that. Not a chance. You're very humble, but I enjoyed your music, Mike.

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You know, the first time I heard you sing was up in Park City when we had a circuit conference here in 2002. And I was supposed to give you a ride from some reception we were having, and I forgot, and you had to get your own

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way over to the, to the hall where we were having our circuit meeting and um the Chief Judge Deanell Tacha had asked you to sing a song, and I, I can't remember if it was the national anthem or another patriotic song, but I was, I

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was dumbstruck. I thought, wow. What a, what a choice person we have that can, can do that. So thanks for doing that, Mike. I know it's a sacrifice, and I've heard you warm up before too. Uh, you, you do the me, me, me, mes, and,

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those are terrific to hear you do as well. You're easily entertained. Yeah, right. OK. Going back to college, did you have any jobs during your college tenure that helped make you the seasoned person you are today. I was the messenger.

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I stayed all through undergrad and during school, I was part-time, and during the summer breaks, I was full-time. So that kept me busy the whole time. So did you go around and shake a few hands at the local law firms, see what else you can pull

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out? No, they kept me too busy. I had just long enough to just go to the receptionist, drop the package off and run back to the office. So, no, I didn't. Not until I started clerking after law school started. OK. And you well, what

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drew you to Denver U for your undergrad? Actually, my father, that was his alma mater, and he was bound and determined that one of his sons was going to follow his footsteps. So, I didn't have much choice. He was bound and determined to get

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me to DU and I thoroughly enjoyed the four years there. And what did you major in? Political science and economics I had a double major and then a minor in music. I've heard that before. I've got a little bit of that in my background. Now, during your

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college career, did you just live at home or did you go to the same dorm there at DU? No, I lived at home to save money. And then I did, so my first experience truly of being in the college experience was law school. OK. Well

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then, going back and forth to school, I wanna know what kind of car you drove, Mr. Romero. Oh boy, back in those days. You know, I think I was driving one of those exploding Pintos. That endears you more to me than I than. Yeah,

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thank you for doing that. Now, was, you, you went to law school after DU. And how did you go about selecting and applying for law school? Well, I had a lot of help from the lawyers at the large law firm I was at.

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They were all doing a selling job for me to try to apply to their various alma maters, and it came down at the end to between Stanford and Michigan. And the Michigan group, there were 7 or 8 Michigan lawyers at the firm I was

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at, and they had personally arranged for a tour of my father and I and Suzanne to go to Ann Arbor to see the campus, and they gave us the red carpet treatment and I loved the campus. You know, the law school is absolutely stunning. Stanford was

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beautiful too, but I didn't have quite the red carpet treatment, and frankly, they did a nice shell job in Ann Arbor, and that's where I ended up. Interesting. You know, I've been to Ann Arbor too, but not in, in the law school. I've been there for

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a couple of football games, and it is a spectacular campus, very impressive. And how did, tell me a little bit about your law school experience. Did you, did you like any class more than another? It was fascinating. Undergrad was challenging, but I

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didn't know what the word challenging meant until I got to law school. I've, you know. Undergrad, I could study, but I still had enough time to sit and enjoy, going to the student union. Yeah, I was wooing my then or soon to be wife.

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Law school was a whole different experience. It was all consuming, at least the first year. And that was an interesting experience where I had to basically buckle down for the first time. And at the same time, I was also trying to adjust to being away from

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home for the first time and being away from my then fiance for the first time. So the first couple of years were an interesting experience. And you stay in the dorms or a a home or what, how, where did you stay? First year in

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law school, we were pretty much required to stay. There was an attached, law school is a, is a Gothic quadrangle, and two arms of the quadrangle are law school dorms. It's called the Lawyers Club, and we all stayed there for the first year. A 2nd

00:14:14.580 - 00:14:30.479

year, 7 of us got together and we rented 2 floors of a house roughly about a half a mile away from the law school. And we called ourselves the family, and we lived together all 2nd year and then 3rd year, I had just gotten married,

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so my wife and I lived on married student housing. About 1 mile or so away from campus. Now, do you still have any dealings with those folks, the, the seven, that you associated with? Well, of the 7 of us, unfortunately, 3 have passed. The others

00:14:50.080 - 00:15:05.460

of us, periodically, you know, not as regularly as we would like, we will do a big chill type of thing where we will rent a house or, you know, a Airbnb someplace in Ann Arbor and get together. Last time was about 4 years ago,

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actually just before COVID. And we'd get together, um, with our spouses if they wanted, if they could come. And we would just get together, enjoy each other's company, and go to some of the old haunts together and just enjoy that. And then we meet each other

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at various reunions when those come up. That sounds like a wonderful experience. Now, while you're in law school, did you have a, a professor or two that kind of made some kind of an impression on you? Oh, yeah. The one who had for us

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the most impact in my law school experience was a gentleman named JJ White, who most people who back then, if you had the White and Summers UCC treatise or hornbook, he was the white of White and Summers. Now, JJ was an interesting experience, was an interesting

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man. First of all, he was about 5'7. He had, he was a colonel in the Ohio Air National Guard, a fighter pilot. We used to call him Bomber and Strafer White because he would sit in class, he would come in his, in his

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army boots. Lean back, put his feet on the desk, and then start quizzing you. Now, he had an absolute photographic memory, and before he came in, regardless of the size of the class, he knew where you were from, he knew who you were, so there was

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no hiding in the class. Now, the strategic placement we all had in law school of wanting to be one side or the other, and trying to avoid calling, didn't work for JJ. Cause he knew who you were and would call you up. And then you'd be

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up for 40 minutes. So it was a, it was a somewhat. Let's just say painful experience when you're dealing with him. The reason that he's so memorable is he had also. In the 1960s. He had, there was a singing group. In the law school called the

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Serfs. And he had been looking for years and years and years to resurrect another law school singing group. He knew he went through all the resumes and discovered that there were 4 of us in my class. Ironically, 1 of my roommates in the dorm and I,

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and then 2 women in the, in the class who were singers in the past. He put us together, called us the Headnotes. And the law school had a very rough. You know, kind of like a talent show at the end of the first year. And

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they called it the law review. We performed there for just one of the acts. Little did we know that that was going to change the rest of our law school experience. Because the next fall when he came in there, they always had our first, when you

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got to, to campus, they always had a board where they had all your case assignments for the first couple of days on the wall. When we got to the wall, there was a note for the 4 of us to see Professor White. What Professor White had

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done is he had decided he was going to book us all over campus. So we had a performance roughly once a month, maybe twice a month in various places around campus. Including once when former professor or former President Ford came through and addressed the law school.

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He had us sing in front of President Ford. Those, those kind of things kind of affect you. Ironically, the next year we came back, he had done it again. He booked us all over campus, but what he had also done, 2nd semester, 2nd year,

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and all through the 3rd year, is he had unilaterally taken my class selections. And adjusted them, so I had to attend every single class that he taught at the university, one a semester. So I had my fill of Professor White. The entire experience I had at

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in Ann Arbor. So To this day, I said, I said, I think the world of the man, when I became a judge, I got one of the nicest letters you could possibly imagine from him because he remembered. And the funny thing is, I would, yeah,

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I would like to think I would be remembered for my academic achievements in Ann Arbor, but I'm not. The Headnotes still exist. I was in Ann Arbor just recently and there was a poster on the wall in the law school, and the Headnotes has gone

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from the 4 people that we started out with to almost 20 some people now, and it's a recognized. A group of law students now every year that have been performing since 1977. Or '78, I guess is when we sang the first time together. So, it's been

00:19:59.969 - 00:20:19.130

that long. That's my legacy in Ann Arbor, is singing, not my law school abilities. What a wonderful experience. I doubt the rest of us could find something as memorable as that. Maybe we just, maybe not as memorable, but, that we got through it. Did

00:20:19.130 - 00:20:37.430

you ever consider, what kind of law you wanted to get into while you're in law school? Oh yeah, it's a I like codes, um, and things of that type, but when I came out of law school, I wanted to be a securities lawyer. And my

00:20:37.430 - 00:20:51.329

first job was with the largest firm in Denver, and I started out in the securities department. I wrote a couple of prospectuses and then soon realized that while it may be right for a lot of folks and they would thoroughly enjoy it, I was not going

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to be one of those folks. So, ironically, the, at that time, the head of the bankruptcy department in the firm, and this, the firm was roughly about 80 people at that time, had found out that I had done some work with Professor Kennedy at

00:21:06.420 - 00:21:19.229

the law school who is one of the ones who was instrumental in drafting the original code. And found that out. And so he figured I could do my way around the bankruptcy code and asked if I'd want to join him in the bankruptcy department. And

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the rest is, as you say, history. I stayed the rest of my, you know, time at that firm and thereafter as a bankruptcy litigation associate and later partner. Well, thank goodness for him, steering you, steering you in the right direction. Now, while you were in law

00:21:38.219 - 00:21:55.300

school, did you serve on any journals or reviews and do, do some writing that we can go look at if we wanted to? No, not really. That's the one thing about Ann Arbor. The quality of the law students were so incredible that, you

00:21:55.300 - 00:22:11.680

know, as smart as I thought I was coming out of undergrad, I'm sorry, I was just a piker compared to some of the brains that, that I was, they were my fellow classmates. And they were the ones who were in the Law review. I was not.

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So. And since that time, you've distinguished yourself, you don't need to be on those reviews to, or the journals to, to make a name. Did you do anything else in law school besides the singing and, and your classwork? There was no time to do anything

00:22:32.849 - 00:22:48.869

else but classwork and go occasionally, you know, we went to the football games and occasionally we went to the basketball games. And we became, yeah, I became a fanatic Tigers fan. When the, when the opportunity arose during weekends, we'd catch a game or so. Wish I

00:22:48.869 - 00:23:09.359

could do it. We flew back and watched a few games there, and I, I was impressed with the stadium. And it's incredible. Have you ever thought of teaching? I don't think I have the ability to do so, other than I enjoy, I have taught

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some classes occasionally at college for one or two classes on bankruptcy related subjects and things of that type. That is incredibly hard. And I can't imagine having the ability to stretch out for an entire semester, a class on bankruptcy. I know that I've had some other

00:23:28.640 - 00:23:48.040

fellow judges here. I've had fellow practitioners who are marvelous at doing that. I don't think I have the patience, nor, you know, I'm not sure anyone wants to listen to me that long. So I will enjoy teaching the classes periodically. I enjoyed speaking at seminars

00:23:48.040 - 00:24:08.439

and things of that type, but for a daily or weekly type of class as a professor, I just don't think that's my strength. Yeah, well, we know what your strengths are. And I, and I'm, during the courses, and I'm sure you're invited up to speak

00:24:08.439 - 00:24:27.410

at the some of the law schools locally and on occasion, and I guess you've enjoyed those, have, have you not? And I, I, those, those are the times I enjoy going up and helping those. I enjoy working with the young lawyer, the young future lawyers, and

00:24:27.410 - 00:24:49.459

I've had the opportunity to, Observe and judge. There are something called the Duberstein competition. I've had the privilege of being a judge on that, which basically, judges the law school mock trial competition on a national basis. And you see these brilliant, brilliant young people come

00:24:49.459 - 00:25:11.560

up and perform and argue before you, and I'm always stunned and humbled by the fact that these youngsters, are better before they got out of law school than I think I ever was in my 24 years of practice. I've noticed that too here. Even, even though

00:25:11.560 - 00:25:29.880

we're a little further west than from, from Denver, and we still have law schools here and, and we see the same thing. We see brilliant people, law clerks and the like, and you and I have both been blessed with very capable people that

00:25:29.880 - 00:25:45.229

have helped us. So I, I agree with your conclusion on that one. OK, well, you got, you got through law school. And you wanted to go back to Denver, or did you wanna go somewhere else to practice? I had 3 choices when I got out

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of law school, one in Seattle, one in San Diego, and 1 here. All wonderful firms, and, and I was flattered by having the opportunity to go to the large firms in one of those, those three cities. And Yeah, I visited them all. I love them

00:26:01.979 - 00:26:19.890

all. One thing that caught me, I, I remember marking, remarking is when I was talking to the lawyers in San Diego and and Seattle, they kept on talking about how much they loved vacationing and, and visiting Denver. So it occurred to me, so if they

00:26:19.890 - 00:26:35.739

enjoy coming there to Denver so much, then why am I thinking about leaving? So, I came wandering back. My family was here. Suzanne's family was here. So it's just a natural move right back. That makes sense. That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. Although,

00:26:35.880 - 00:26:52.180

if someone dangled San Diego in front of me, I could be really persuaded. It was hard. All 3, all, all, all 3 locations were fabulous places, and yet I've often wondered where my life would have taken me if I'd gone to either Seattle or San Diego.

00:26:52.819 - 00:27:09.060

Hey, did, did, did you start in a firm or a government or where? Started with one of the largest 4 firms at the time in, in Denver. And that's where I started at. Which one was that? Holland and Hart. Oh, OK. Yeah, they have a

00:27:09.060 - 00:27:29.790

branch over here as well. And how long were you there? I was there for roughly 3.5 years. OK, and then and then left, then left and another firm made an offer I couldn't turn down, so I moved to another firm. And so did

00:27:29.790 - 00:27:41.750

you start practicing bankruptcy right away, or you, or were you in the securities department for the first, I, for the first few months, I was in the securities department, but then after I got into the bankruptcy department, and we still had a little bit of a

00:27:41.750 - 00:27:55.349

rotation, but they grabbed me so quickly in bankruptcy that I always had my hand in bankruptcy, even when I was rotating through some of the other departments. So, yeah, but for the first year, for all intents and purposes, I was going to be destined to be

00:27:55.349 - 00:28:16.119

in the bankruptcy department. What drew you to bankruptcy? To be want and wanna be involved in it. I love bankruptcy because it is the perfect mix of litigation and transactional law. For those of us who want to be in the courtroom, you are always there

00:28:16.119 - 00:28:33.800

and defending the client's rights and, and. Honing your skills in the courtroom. The transactional side, every deal that was coming through usually had some kind of bankruptcy component or they're drafting some bankruptcy protection language and contracts, or some problems were coming up and they're trying to

00:28:33.800 - 00:28:47.150

figure out how they're going to deal with bankruptcy related issues. So I was constantly being brought in with other partners in the other departments trying to figure out how we're going to get around the bankruptcy issues that they were facing. So I got a broad exposure

00:28:47.150 - 00:29:07.219

throughout my, you know, firm and with a broader different types of clients. And I don't think there was any other type of law that crossed those lines so regularly. So that's it. It's, it allowed me to become a, you know, in essence, a great generalist because

00:29:07.219 - 00:29:26.150

I knew a little bit about almost everything. And it was a lot of fun. Yeah, it was, it was. What, when did you actually start practicing in that first firm? 1980. 1980. OK, so you missed the, well, you were there at the beginning of the,

00:29:26.160 - 00:29:42.760

Bankruptcy Reform Act or what we call. Absolutely, that was the best part of, you know, being a practice bankruptcy practitioner in those early days, because you, you know, no one really knew that everyone was still trying to figure out what this great thing they called

00:29:42.760 - 00:29:56.839

the code was. And I remember a lot of times we'd be sitting in there trying to figure out, OK, what are we going to call this pleading? Because we're going to something that no one had seen in the area. So, we'd make up the title and

00:29:56.839 - 00:30:09.780

we'd, we'd throw it out there and see what happens, and then the next time we'd modify it a little bit more. And it was, we were making law, and everyone that was going around across the country. We were all just kind of, Figuring out what this

00:30:09.780 - 00:30:26.250

thing was that was bankruptcy, and then when Northern Pipeline came down. We are then trying to figure out now what? So for another year, we're still trying to figure out what we're gonna do then. So, it was a great year of just learning and experimenting. There

00:30:26.250 - 00:30:44.810

was, every day was a different adventure and a different challenge. So, the early 80s were an amazing time to be a bankruptcy practitioner. I remember those two. I was, I was on board right when the 78 act became effective in '79, early

00:30:44.810 - 00:31:04.739

80s. And experience some of the same feelings that you did. Probably a little bit different because of the nature of the, the people who would come through our our firm. How long were you in private practice? From 1980 to 2003, so what

00:31:04.739 - 00:31:28.380

is that? 23 years. 23. Yeah. And so what drew you to apply for the position as a bankruptcy judge? I had made a promise to my father. My father was the head of the welfare department in Denver for his entire career. And he was bound and

00:31:28.380 - 00:31:46.430

determined that his sons at one time or another were going to be in public service. So he made me promise that I would sometime or another in my life, I would, you know, do something in either government or judiciary or something. And It just seemed like

00:31:46.430 - 00:32:00.260

a natural progression to eventually, you know. Become a judge and I was pushed in that direction by some of the judges here that I might make a fairly decent judge. So it just kind of fell into it. I'd always hoped that maybe half of my career

00:32:00.260 - 00:32:18.670

would be in public service, half of my career would be in the, in the private sector, and it's worked out exactly that. Obviously no regrets. None, none whatsoever. Being a judge has been better than I ever dreamed, and it is, yes, I, I couldn't have scripted

00:32:18.670 - 00:32:39.949

my life any better than what it's been. So you were appointed in 2003, and of course, we're now 2025, so do the math, that's another 22 years. Yes, sir. And you, you've been through what, a couple of reappointment processes. Gone through one and my

00:32:39.949 - 00:32:54.810

next one will come up in I guess 6 years. OK. And so, it, it's too early to pin you down on what you wanna do at that time, but, oh, no, my wife has said I'm gonna die on the bench if I'm still healthy because

00:32:54.810 - 00:33:14.099

she doesn't want me at home. I bet the dog, the dogs would want you at home. I don't know, they're having a good time with her. OK. Well, since you've been on the bench, have, have you felt that you've developed any particular philosophy on what

00:33:14.099 - 00:33:32.020

you'd like to apply to the cases that come before you? All I ask, and I hope that when I leave here, my legacy is going to be that I was fair. That I listen to people, It's the, the key I've always had is you

00:33:32.020 - 00:33:51.449

go in there with an open mind. And you listen to the site because it's amazing what you learn when you listen. And Particularly for those who sometimes feel Now, well, let me put it this way. We as bankruptcy judges are dealing, particularly with individuals when they

00:33:51.449 - 00:34:10.500

are perhaps at their lowest part of their lives. They are financially devastated. And the least we can do is to show them the respect, to be able to listen to their problems and try to, you know, empathize with what they're going through. Still apply the law

00:34:10.649 - 00:34:27.850

as written. We're not, we're not making the law. We have to apply the law, but do what we can to help these folks. Get that fresh start, which is the keyword we use in the bankruptcy practice. And That is the philosophy is basically to give these

00:34:27.850 - 00:34:49.389

folks the respect that they deserve and give them the help they deserve to turn the chapter. Great philosophy, like, and I know, I've noted that too. I've been on some panels where I've had the opportunity of, on the BAP to look at some of

00:34:49.389 - 00:35:06.580

your writings and some of your decisions. I think we've affirmed most of them, but I, I gather that same philosophy you just explained, it, it has passed through into your writing and so I'm sure the bar and then the parties appreciate that philosophy,

00:35:06.590 - 00:35:24.250

going forward. You know, I think a lot of the judges try to do the same thing. Now, how did you, Well, who was the chief judge on the, on the, of the 10th Circuit when you applied to be a judge? It was Deanell

00:35:24.250 - 00:35:45.219

Tacha. Deanell, yeah, same here, and she was, she was a wonderful, she was a wonderful diplomat. Unbelievably good individual, jurist, and she still is. And it's, I, I, every time I see Deanell, I, I love chatting with her and, And just enjoying her company. Now several

00:35:45.219 - 00:36:02.959

years into your term, you were also appointed as a member of the 10th Circuit Bankruptcy Appellate panel, weren't you? Yes, I was roughly about 5 years in. Five years yeah. My guess is around 2008, 2009, I think is when I was first appointed. I don't have,

00:36:03.030 - 00:36:17.919

I don't have an exact recollection when I was appointed, but it's like five or six years in. OK. And why did you want to do that? It frankly intrigued me. Uh, is an interest to it, it was, there was an interest in doing the appellate side

00:36:17.919 - 00:36:34.550

of things to work with my fellow judges and to see if by doing so, I could develop, you know, some skills that would help me, as a trial judge. And I was exactly right. It it worked out just beautifully that way. I love my fellow,

00:36:34.760 - 00:36:49.820

I love and I have loved working with my fellow judges on the BAP. And it has, it's my writing has changed drastically since I've been on the BAP as a trial judge. So would you say it helped you be a better trial judge? Absolutely, it it's

00:36:49.820 - 00:37:03.949

also made my opinions a lot longer. Because I use what's called belt and suspenders now because I, I from the appellate angle, I know there only has to be one hook that I put in my justifying my rulings that has to be right so that to

00:37:03.949 - 00:37:22.409

be affirmed. So I will give you plenty, I'll give the appellate groups plenty of options to, as why I ruled the way I did. Thank you for doing that. Now, you were appointed as the chief judge of the BAP several years ago, and

00:37:23.219 - 00:37:42.389

how have you enjoyed that, all the ominous responsibilities that have come on your shoulders because of that? You yourself were, you know, the chief as well. I'm not sure how many additional responsibilities you have. You've got some incredibly competent judges, so that's, that's nice. It's

00:37:42.389 - 00:37:55.479

not such a huge clerk's office that you have to worry about, and unlike when you're a chief of, of the regular court, It's basically the only time we really have to, you know, the, the responsibility of the chief judge is to make sure that the

00:37:55.479 - 00:38:14.750

circuit is happy and do what you can to assist the circuit in recognizing the value that we have and we bring to the table. So, my goal has been during my entire tenure, is to do what I can to improve what we do in aiding the

00:38:14.750 - 00:38:36.169

circuit and aiding the basically, The bankruptcy community as a whole. Now, when there's, when a, when a vacancy or, or pops up in the BAP. I'm sure the chief judge has come to you and said, Ask you for recommendation. Is that kinda how that

00:38:36.169 - 00:38:54.129

works? Yes, well, he comes to you, yes and no. What we do is we recognize when there are openings on the BAP, and The BAP is, uh, being chief is nothing but first amongst equals. You talk first at the meetings. That's all it really means. So

00:38:54.129 - 00:39:09.489

you, and you've got a vast reservoir of incredible legal minds sitting with you on the BAP. And we also in the years past have had pro tems where we've had the opportunity to have almost every other judge in our circuit sit on our panels should they

00:39:09.489 - 00:39:25.719

so desire. So you've had the opportunity to see how you work with the other judges and have a good handle on which judges might be good candidates to to work on the BAP in future years. So when openings occur, we consult with one another, and it's

00:39:25.719 - 00:39:43.790

been usually a very easy consensus as to these individuals might be great additions. And when that happens, it just recently happened with us, I will make the, yeah, I'll make the request to the, the chief judge that we think these individuals might

00:39:43.790 - 00:40:04.370

be good candidates to serve on the BAP and let him make the choice. Great, good choices have been made by you. Now you've, you've done some other things that are, have, that, that are law-related. And your fingerprints are all over them. You

00:40:04.370 - 00:40:22.280

were selected by the Chief Justice to sit as a bankruptcy, a member of the judicial conference, isn't that correct? I was the 4th member, or 4th ever, observer to the judicial conference and as a bankruptcy representative. It's an incredible honor and it was an amazing

00:40:22.280 - 00:40:45.310

experience for 2 years to serve in that role. What would you gather from, from that was the more meaningful or educational experience. One, just understanding how everything works. And the greatest thing about being part of the conference, even as an observer, is, well, during the conference

00:40:45.310 - 00:41:00.469

plenary sessions, we don't say a thing. We actually sit out, just outside the main table. The table is kind of, this, a square oval, if you will, with the member judges sitting around it and we're just outside of that. You see how it works. But

00:41:00.469 - 00:41:20.979

the more useful is The night before, and then usually the afternoon of the plenary session, there are breakout sessions. The afternoon sessions are the district judges on the conference, meet in one room and the appellate judges on the other. We sit with the district

00:41:20.979 - 00:41:35.199

judges and in those, we get to participate. And issues you're anticipating, issues that are going to be coming up at the next conference. So you are working through a lot of those, and at that time you get to contribute. And if you start seeing issues that

00:41:35.199 - 00:41:51.530

may be bankruptcy related to something that will impact bankruptcy courts, you then start raising it then with those folks who start laying the foundation. So maybe they can be, those issues can be taken out amongst the committees that serve as the judicial conference, you know, feeder

00:41:51.530 - 00:42:10.060

arms, if you will, so they can start evaluating those issues. So maybe ultimately they can be brought up to the conference. Well, you've also participated in some other activities off the bench, and one particular one is the National Conference of Bankruptcy Judges, the

00:42:10.060 - 00:42:27.409

NCBJ. Have you been a member of that all your judicial career or before, or did you join? The day I walked in, they grabbed me and told me to sign up, and I did. Who's they? I can't remember who the individuals were. All I remember

00:42:27.409 - 00:42:40.939

is I was getting a series of calls, almost daily from after I first sat, telling me about the merits of the NCBJ and how good it was, and it sounded like a great idea, so I joined, and I haven't regretted it since. And have you enjoyed

00:42:40.939 - 00:43:04.979

that membership since? I've loved every moment. What do you, what would you say has been your overall impression of the NCBJ on you? It's the camaraderie, and that's what the NCBJ does. We are the, basically, for lack of a better term, the bankruptcy judges union.

00:43:05.659 - 00:43:21.790

We are the ones where, you know, you gather the bankruptcy judges, the member bankruptcy judges, and we sit and talk about common issues. Yes, there are differences between our various locales and our different courts, size and, you know, geography and types of cases we handle, but

00:43:21.790 - 00:43:38.989

there are a lot of common things that affect all of us. We can sit and talk amongst ourselves, we educate ourselves, and the camaraderie. The one thing that, every judge throughout the judiciary comments on is how close the bankruptcy judges are. We truly are a

00:43:38.989 - 00:43:59.750

very large 300 person plus club. We enjoy each other's company, and that's primarily due to the NCBJ and the things that they do to bring us together. It's invaluable. There is no other judges association. The magistrates do not have an association like ours. The district

00:43:59.750 - 00:44:17.909

judges and the appellate judges do not have an association like ours. Ours has been in existence for nearly 100 years, and it's going to be 100 years next year. And it has been a remarkable organization and by the fact that we existed that existed that long.

00:44:19.159 - 00:44:40.270

Behooves the merits and the value of the organization. I remember you and I were on a committee or two together, most notably the legislative committee of the NCBJ, and I think you're, I think I'm more of an observer now than, and you're an active member. But,

00:44:40.370 - 00:45:01.120

those are fun times. Do, do you have a, a memory, serving on the legislative committee that sticks out in your mind. Oh, just the fact that it's. The experience of meeting and chatting and seeing how that branch of the government works, it

00:45:01.120 - 00:45:20.679

is eye-opening. And sometimes it's the most frustrating thing you can possibly imagine, where we think we have something of value that we need to, you know, educate the legislators on in hopes that they would pass something that would assist. Sometimes they do it, sometimes you walk

00:45:20.679 - 00:45:35.070

against a brick wall. Sometimes the most frustrating times are when you think you've got it all lined up, and then politics starts playing its part, and at the very end, what you, you got, you're within 5 yards of the finish line and all of a sudden,

00:45:35.530 - 00:45:57.320

the runner trips. And it, it dies there. It's, it's been. A rewarding and one of the most frustrating experiences of being on that committee. But again, it's, you know, you're working with some incredible people, you know, as the fellow judges, and working with some of the

00:45:57.320 - 00:46:16.530

aides and some of the legislators themselves have been, you know, a remarkably rewarding experience. Now, I remember one time that uh I was with you and we were assigned to go and visit several of our congresspeople, or senators. And you said, Thurman, let, let

00:46:16.530 - 00:46:36.010

me take you on a shortcut. And you took me down to the bowels of the of the Capitol building and you weaved us around through all sorts of corners and, and the like, and we ended up over at the house side. And how

00:46:36.010 - 00:46:49.719

did you learn that, your, your way around the, the secret passages? When you're talking to the staff members and you say you've got to get from one side to the other, can they help you? And when you, after one or two times, they will give you

00:46:49.719 - 00:47:10.070

the secrets. Now, mind you, since COVID hit. And maybe a little before then with security reasons, a lot of those pathways have now been closed to us. So we're walking around more outside now than, than going through the, the trains that go from the Senate side

00:47:10.070 - 00:47:27.810

to the, to the Congress assembly areas or from the House side to the assembly areas. But there are still walkways and you can still go through the walkways periodically and it's, you learn the bowels. Now, have you found, found it helpful to make

00:47:27.810 - 00:47:48.820

a personal relationship with your Colorado congresspeople? Absolutely. And frankly, it's, it's good to be, you know, have a good relationship with all of them you can. The NCBJ primarily focuses with those members on the Judiciary Committee. Both in the House and the Senate

00:47:48.820 - 00:48:06.790

side and the staff members. And I think one of the reasons why our group is as effective, if not more effective than any other judge groups in educating the legislatures is because we will go to them even when we don't have an ask. We will go

00:48:06.790 - 00:48:18.729

to them and talk to their offices and say, OK, we don't, we're not asking you about for anything right now. We just want to know if you have any questions on some bankruptcy centric issues or things of that type. And if you don't, if you do,

00:48:18.899 - 00:48:33.169

here, here's who you can call, and we'll get you the answer. If we don't have the answer, we'll get it for you. And to develop relationships of that type. So they will constantly call you and ask you just some random question, but maybe in some bill

00:48:33.169 - 00:48:51.370

that you'll never see of, but that's how you get through relationships. We ask our members to, if they have relationships with other members in the, in the Congress to get to know them because members shift committees. And sometimes one of the, the members, be it

00:48:51.370 - 00:49:06.879

in Colorado or Utah or New York or wherever it may be, may find themselves on the Judiciary Committee where we actually do need to chat with them about something important. And then you've had the relationships that you've established. So that's one of the reasons we are

00:49:06.879 - 00:49:23.719

always telling our membership, get to know your, you know, your representatives, get to know your senators. And it's not hard to do, but make sure that you're a resource for them because you never know when it may come handy for us. I remember going with

00:49:23.719 - 00:49:41.199

you one time while we're in DC and visited a member of Congress, I think it was from Congress from Colorado, and you said, Thurman, I don't know what to expect. This is, he's a little, maybe unpredictable. We walked in and, and, and this fellow, yeah,

00:49:41.280 - 00:50:03.979

I wish I remember his name, you'll remember it in a second, had a big rifle. Representative Buck. OK, yeah. He, he was great, and I thought the, the way you handled it was, was just so superb, that helped us ingratiate both of us into

00:50:03.979 - 00:50:19.000

his confidences, and we could talk to him. And I think that's really one of the keys to working with Congress is getting to know them. Don't just come on and beat, beat them up. Would you agree with that? Oh, absolutely, you don't just walk in

00:50:19.000 - 00:50:32.739

and just go right to business. A lot of times you don't have the time and you've got to get right to it, and they don't, they don't want you just, um, Just taking up their time with idle idle chit chat, but like any human relationship, You've

00:50:32.739 - 00:50:44.969

got to get to know them a little bit. So before you visit anyone, I typically do a little bit of a background check and I'll see what their interests are. I'll see if they've done something like, you know, there were some of them may have played

00:50:44.969 - 00:51:00.629

football at a college or something like that. And you can go in and just drop an offhand comment about their school or about their, their, about your knowledge about them and just by the fact that you've looked into them to a certain extent, ingratiate yourself. And

00:51:00.629 - 00:51:16.000

it's a great open door to start some other conversation if they want to expand the personal conversations, terrific. That forms the friendships. If they don't, then you just get right to work. But it's just like, it's like any other business relationship. And oftentimes they'll say, well,

00:51:16.080 - 00:51:31.780

now, what are you here for really, Mike? What do you, what do you want from me? And, and I think that's fine. I think that's fine, and that's a good way, absolutely, yeah. Now you also served as the president of the NCBJ. And that was for

00:51:31.780 - 00:51:54.080

a one-year term, just a few years ago. And how did you enjoy that? It was One of the most interesting and perhaps the most rewarding year I've had, interesting because there are challenges, incredible challenges. Also interesting because you get daily calls from members, from

00:51:54.080 - 00:52:08.550

other fellow judges. One of the biggest jokes we always talk about is they think the president can change anything. We can't, but we serve as a sounding board where if they, if they ask about something, they want something done, we might be able to

00:52:08.550 - 00:52:19.750

help them find the person they need to talk to to get it done. But it gets you to know the individuals. Again, we see we've got 300 some odd people in our group, and you don't know all of them, but you get to know them when

00:52:19.750 - 00:52:36.129

you're the president, and that's a lot of fun. Yes, there is a whole lot of bureaucracy and headaches trying to deal with a convention when you're dealing with between 1000 and 2000 people coming to a convention. Thank goodness we have an executive director that

00:52:36.129 - 00:52:53.750

takes care of most of that, but there are a lot of little headaches that you've got to deal with. What, what would you consider them, uh, one of the biggest challenges that you faced as the president and how did you solve it? Every president, as we

00:52:53.750 - 00:53:10.409

laughing, you know, in most presidencies, there's one issue that no one anticipates is going to come up. And it may define your presidency. It may be just something that you just have to react and, you know, I just don't know, yeah. What's going to happen, for

00:53:10.409 - 00:53:26.870

example, In the year before me, Judge Walrath had to deal with the tragic shooting in Las Vegas, the week before our conference. How do you deal with that? How do, what, how could, you know, do we still have a conference in light of that kind

00:53:26.870 - 00:53:43.469

of tragedy? What do you do? That was something that the board, and I was part of the board since I was the incoming president, had to deal with. You didn't expect that. My year, the challenge was venue. That was one of the times when

00:53:43.469 - 00:54:02.520

there was a big push to, you know, amend the venue statutes. There were strong, strong, strong opinions on both sides of that issue. We had a mid-year that most of us who were involved in the NCBJ at that time will never forget. Mid-years are typically

00:54:02.520 - 00:54:17.840

1 hour or 2 hours long, and this was over 4 hours. And there was a lot of hatred controversy going on back and forth and some shouting. And frankly, it was, the fear we had was it was going to become such a divisive issue that

00:54:17.840 - 00:54:34.719

it could cause some permanent damage to our organization. So we had to come up with a solution of some kind that would somehow, well, not resolve the issues, at least cool the area down and cool the parties down so we could reasonably look at the issue

00:54:34.719 - 00:54:50.439

and try to come up with some kind of resolution. Our resolution that year was to come up with a white paper that gave both sides the right to, and we got people from both sides of the argument to participate in the drafting of this, to

00:54:50.439 - 00:55:04.689

lay out their positions as articulately as they possibly can, and then we would put out to the membership and anybody else who wanted to read it so we would truly understand the venue issue. That there really was a no right or wrong issue, but they, they

00:55:04.689 - 00:55:17.899

can at least understand why both sides are as strongly, or they felt as strongly as they did about their side. It didn't make any side perfectly happy, but it was one way of keeping the peace within our organization. I think we were stronger because of it.

00:55:19.020 - 00:55:32.270

It's like in court, you know, if you get two opposing parties, you put them in a room together, and you talk things out and become best friends. Well, maybe not best friends, but maybe not best friends, but at least you respect each other. Yeah, I

00:55:32.270 - 00:55:53.060

think you're right. Well, Mike, you've been around now for a number of years in practice and on the bench. Have you seen, or, or, you've seen changes in the law? What would you consider the most drastic change that you've observed in the bankruptcy law

00:55:53.060 - 00:56:20.070

over the Years that you've done this. The Biggest issue we have to deal with, and the biggest challenge we have is the cyclicalization of our cyclical nature of our business. We have had times, where we have had uncontrollable filings. The Bankruptcy law change in 2005

00:56:20.070 - 00:56:43.449

resulted in a huge influx of cases that just inundated the system. We had another rash of filings and after the 2008 economic collapse that affected us through 2012 probably. Recently, most recently, yeah, yeah, just before COVID and through the COVID years, our filings

00:56:43.449 - 00:57:02.000

have fallen off drastically as such that, The budgets that our respective courts were allowed were cut drastically. And we had to figure new ways that not necessarily bankruptcy law, but bankruptcy operations. We've had to learn how to operate to still provide the same level of high

00:57:02.000 - 00:57:21.090

service that we pride ourselves on with a drastically reduced infrastructure. those kind of changes are the biggest changes I've seen. From my local court, I went from being able to have a staff of 90 to now we're just a little around 30 over the

00:57:21.090 - 00:57:47.870

course of 22 years. That's a huge change. The law itself, the law evolves as every law does. I think Sub 5 was perhaps the largest single. Shift, if you will, in the law, that and BAPCPA, obviously were the two largest shifts, and They've

00:57:47.870 - 00:58:06.330

been fascinating watching. Sub 5s, again, I'm in a district that doesn't have huge mega cases. It has had large bankruptcy cases, but not megas. I'm not in New York. I'm not in Delaware, and it's the sub-5s all of a sudden drastically increased chapter 11s because it

00:58:06.330 - 00:58:26.870

gave 11 opportunities to entities that in the past couldn't afford. Or found it impractical to be able to to get that type of relief. And sub-fives are now a huge part of our practice. That's, that's something I've seen changed. And that may be the biggest change

00:58:26.870 - 00:58:48.260

I've seen recently. Now, without lobbying Congress, what is your observation as to the debt limit in sub-fives? We're trying to educate them. When sub-fives were first being discussed, I remember we were discussing with the folks back there that we thought the limit should be roughly

00:58:48.260 - 00:59:09.959

10 or 12 million. Maybe even a little higher to bring in more people. After the lobbying occurred from various other groups the lobby, it was dropped down to 2.5. COVID hit, they moved it up to 7.5. Our numbers for the filings increased drastically in

00:59:09.959 - 00:59:24.830

sub 5s. That expired, it went back down to 2.75, it's gradually inched its way up. We're trying to get them to go back up to 7.5. So far we've been unsuccessful in getting them to do that. We will continue to try. I hope eventually we can.

00:59:24.909 - 00:59:39.239

I would love to see, I really would love to see it get to 10 million, because I think that would give more opportunities. For more companies to file and frankly give more of our brethren around the country an opportunity to see Chapter 11 work with some

00:59:39.239 - 01:00:01.580

of the most challenging work to do. Where in the past they haven't because they've usually gone to other states which would handle the bigger cases. Now, do you have any concerns about the bankruptcy, about bankruptcy in general going forward? What do you see as maybe

01:00:01.800 - 01:00:28.149

some of the challenges that the system will face? I'm trying to figure out what challenges. The challenge, there's always a challenge. Yeah, our jurisdiction is always being somewhat challenged. Whether it was be Northern Pipeline or the Lord knows all the other cases we've dealt with over

01:00:28.149 - 01:00:45.270

the years, which takes away some of our jurisdictions or changes how we, we operate. You never can tell when something like that is going to make a seismic shift of our operations. You never know what the political winds are going to be, whether or not

01:00:45.270 - 01:01:07.889

someone's going to change something in Congress to change our laws. That's the great thing about bankruptcy is we're flexible. I would like to think I am somewhat concerned because of the cyclical nature of our business that there are gaps in the practitioners in terms of

01:01:08.030 - 01:01:24.199

ages. There are whole groups, you know, sometimes even a decade of lawyers where they do not have the expertise to be able to cover all of the bankruptcy cases. And if there's all of a sudden a grand surge. That the expertise may not be there. How

01:01:24.199 - 01:01:47.419

do we correct that? More bankruptcy cases. That's other than that, until it becomes, an economic driver in the private sector, you're not going to have large numbers of practitioners. It may become a during some of the off years when I was in practice, you learned

01:01:47.419 - 01:01:59.399

other expertise, but you always had the bankruptcy experience in your back pocket. So when it didn't, you know. Ramp up, you were able to handle it. That's the only way I think we're going to be able to deal with it. I'm pleased now that we're seeing

01:01:59.399 - 01:02:17.659

a greater influx of young lawyers. Things like the Duberstein will get people interested in it. Things like what the NCBJ is doing to encourage young lawyers to get involved with them, you know, it's, they will learn again, the things that we did as, as

01:02:17.659 - 01:02:36.649

young lawyers that it is an amazing expertise to have because it does give you a taste of both transactional and litigation where nothing else does. And it is a useful thing that you can never regret having at least some knowledge of. If you were to leave

01:02:36.649 - 01:03:03.949

your counsel. For us out of sorts who may not be in Denver, and for the rest of the country. Do you have any advice for bankruptcy practitioners or, or the like? Keep the faith, um, again. We are the economic.

01:03:05.520 - 01:03:23.949

Drivers in the heartbeat. For the economy. That's it, you have to have the ability to fail in order to progress. When we teach classes in bankruptcy, we usually start with some of the individuals who have had bankruptcy in their past, some of the great people in

01:03:23.949 - 01:03:42.899

the past, like Edison, like Disney, like Ford, all of the individuals who, if they hadn't failed in the early times and experimented, we, they would have not turned into the mega companies that they are now. It gives presently, it gives these folks an opportunity

01:03:42.899 - 01:04:05.350

to innovate, to try something, the ability to fail. It is invaluable for us to be able to continue to grow as a society. So for the corporations and the young, yeah, the. Business, the future business individuals and lead business leaders, we have to give them the

01:04:05.750 - 01:04:29.629

right and the chance to experiment. For the individuals again. The vast majority of the individuals that come before us are not evil people. They were hit by fate, usually a medical, loss of a job, or something in the like. And those there, they couldn't help that.

01:04:30.610 - 01:04:50.189

And by us being available to them. That we give them the opportunity to get their financial feet back under them and be, you know, both happy individuals in life, but also be a contributing economic factor in our economy. So that's, we are invaluable to having a healthy

01:04:50.189 - 01:05:05.110

society. And that's best seen by the fact that other countries are emulating our systems. I've had the, the pleasure of being in a few other companies when they've been trying to set up or countries, when they've been trying to set up bankruptcy systems of their

01:05:05.110 - 01:05:24.050

own that are copied after ours, and that's because it works. Great. Well, I think I'll conclude on that point right there, Mr. Mike, because, it's, it's great counsel for all of us and for those who will have an opportunity of, of viewing this.

01:05:24.149 - 01:05:40.060

I took a little more time on the NCBJ cause it is important. People coming to our conference next year will have the opportunity to review this and some of the others around the country. That we are interviewing and thank you very much and

01:05:40.060 - 01:05:55.770

by the way, I look forward to you're, you're coming over here next month, aren't you, to Salt Lake for the ABI absolutely, I'll be there. Great, I look forward to it. Thanks again and have the rest of a great day. Thank you, Bill. Bye. OK,

01:05:55.889 - 01:05:58.820

bye-bye.