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25th. OK. Oh you mean today's 25th is right. OK. Thank you. I'll say Today is Thursday, March 25th, 1999. We are here with the Oral Legal History Project interviewing former Chief Justice of the Pennsylvania Supreme Court, Robert NC Nix Junior. I'd like to start off with

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some brief questions about your childhood. I know you were born in 1928 here in Philadelphia. What part of the city did you grow up in? West Philadelphia. Did you have any siblings? No. Can you tell me what your parents did at that time for a living?

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What do you mean by that? Well, what uh what occupation your mother held and your father. My mother was uh. taught, uh, to be a uh school teacher. She was in the uh system in the District of Columbus. And uh But uh she was always a

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school teacher but uh never did. Once became, she decided to had me. That I would be the only student. What kind of hobbies did you have while growing up in West Philadelphia? Oh, we did a lot of things. We used to have a half ball that

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they used to play. And uh Football, two hand touch and those things and we really had a great team in those years. You went to high school at Central. I went to Central. I'd gone to Steven's uh. That is Stevie's uh school for uh for uh.

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School. And then to uh Salzberger. In West Philadelphia and that's uh and then I came to, uh, as you said, to Central Central. So what did you do while you were there? Did you, did you play any sports? Oh, which one all the way through, yeah.

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At my school, schools, I enjoyed all of them. What did you think about um when you were young? In terms of what did you want to be when you grow up? I wanted to be a garbage. I think my mother and father were a little upset

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about that, but in any event, the father said to him, by the way, you know you have to get rid of dead cats. Well, that was the end of that. So that was my decision to make another. Then I wanted to be a detective. Not a

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detective, a detective. So what made you change your mind? So After that Uh I decided that maybe what my father's doing is not a bad job and maybe I'd like to be a lawyer. After you graduated high school, you went to Villanova. What did you major

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in? What did you study? Mhm. Philosophy. Philosophy. What other interests did you have in college? Well, it was an all-male school. So then I was interested only in the uh. Material that they were giving us so there were no no young women to distract you from

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your studies. However, on the weekends, we sort of made up for that uh. OK, um, when did you decide, you decided to become a lawyer after you didn't want to become a detective? Well, no, the first thing I wanted to be was a garbage man. I

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was buried. Right. And then one day my father said, well, now, whatever you want to do. You just make sure you're the best. So then she, he, he told me, uh. If you're going to be a garbage man, you should be the best. And one thing

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you have to do is to get rid of dead cats. Well, that was the end of that one. Then I decided that I wanted to be a detective, not a detective, a detective. And that lasted for a little while. And uh ultimately I decided, well I

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might as well want to be whether my father was, and he was an excellent attorney. And then you decided to go to University of Pennsylvania Law School. That's correct. And your father had attended Penn. He was the 2nd black student to attend Penn. Um, did he

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tell you about his times when he was a student at Penn? Yes, he did. You did very much. He was a very good student. Did he have any obstacles because Not really. Not at that time, no, he did not. Did you ever think about going to

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another law school? No, I knew that it would not be particularly wise to suggest I don't, that I should go to Penn, and I decided to do that. I'm very happy that I did. OK. Um, was it difficult being the only African American in the class

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of 1953? So I'm trying to remember, but I don't think we had, we may have had one or two. Yeah. Did that affect your experiences while at Penn? No, I don't, I don't think so. What were some of the, uh, your favorite subjects? Oh, I enjoyed

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the entire. uh. Yeah. The, the training that they gave us I thought was excellent. Do you remember being involved in any clubs or organizations? Yes, they can. What did they do? Well, uh, they Like all of the other, uh, what do they call them? I used

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to call them, uh. Kent Club. OK. Um, I understand that two of your sons are also attorneys now. That's correct. Did you encourage them? No, I tried to tell them to go off on your own. And I was always saying, you could do what you want

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to do. And ultimately they did two of them decided they wanted to be lawyers, but I wanted them to make it, uh, decide to make that decision to be their own rather than to suggest that that's what they should do. After you graduated Penn, you went

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into the army. That's correct. Um, and you were stationed in the South. That's correct. South Carolina. South Carolina. How was your experience there um from the north to the south? Really wasn't bad because uh my mother's people were from Virginia. My father was in South Carolina.

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So that we had visited down the South and gotten some idea of what the South was, yes. Did you find that your fellow soldiers and your superiors treated you different because you were educated? Well, the group that I went in, many of them were also law

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students and uh And the group that I was with. What were some of the duties that you had while you were in the army? Oh, it was a lot of fun, I guess. You have to go through the normal training, a boot. Boot camp boot camp,

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that's. Uh I don't know how much fans find themselves. Um, what do you think you took away from the experience while being in the army and then also your time in in the South? Well, That's so sure because uh. That there was any difference because I

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used to, uh, my mother's people came from Virginia, Danville, Virginia, and I used to go there and the uh. Uh, when I was a youngster. On the summer and spent the summer there, so I was used to. The southern states at that time and it was

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a lot different as I grew older and saw different parts of it. So the transition wasn't that big because you had family there. That's correct. Now when you came back to Philadelphia in 1956, you served as deputy attorney general. That's correct. So what made you decide

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to take that position? What. Well, uh, for the moment, I thought that would be an interesting. To take that on and uh I decided to do that really, so I had a very good uh Practice at this particular time. But I thought uh That would help.

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Me as I go along in my career and started practicing. That's right and what it was. At first it was Nick Rhodes and and then uh. Um, we, uh, made it next and next. You tried several cases during this time. A number of them. Could you

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describe your style as a litigator? I think I was excellent. No, I was very, very successful. I enjoyed it. Do you think he emulated your father? Oh, I thought I was better. No, he was really a great uh a lawyer too. Do any of the cases

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that you tried stick out in your mind as either challenging or really meaningful? Oh yes, this was a case and I saved him. And at that time, one of my colleagues was uh Cecil. And uh he and I were sort of competitive but very friendly. And,

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and he and he and I handle most of the serious criminal. Jesus. And uh I would always push him and say, now remember. I didn't allow anybody of my people getting burned. So we had a lot of fun. So you had a friendly rivalry. Oh yes.

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In 1959, your father ran for a seat on the United States Congress and won. Did you, were you heavily involved in his campaigning? Oh yes. What types of things did you all kinds of things did you do? Well, number one is that I was at that

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point. Uh It's the name of it now, um. And that's, this is ridiculous, but uh. I was in politics myself and I was a committeeman, then I became the ward leader and uh during that time. And so we were supportive and supportive, of course. You and

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your father went to the March on Washington and Martin Luther King Jr. That was a magnificent experience. Could you tell me how that impacted your your career? Well, I had an opportunity to know Mike. And he was quite a, a person and he's really impressive in

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speeches, but not only just giving speeches. He really had. Determination to try. To break the problems that were then existing. It was quite a person. In 1969, uh, you made a career move and you were a judge on the Philadelphia Court of Common Pleas. No, before

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that, I was in the firm with the family. Right. And then you became a judge. That's correct. What made you decide to run for that? Any lawyer. Eventually decides the best thing to be the judge. Do you think that all of your experience as an attorney

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in front of judges helped you, guided you while you, after you became a judge? I think so. I think it did. Did you see the things that you uh. Wouldn't do in terms of when you were an attorney and you didn't like something a judge did,

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did that help you decide? I think it does. I think it does. What types of cases generally came before you? What was the Court of Common Pleas which took the entire. Area that we covered. And then after that you ran for the Supreme Court, and that

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is a statewide election. That is correct. How was that campaigning, how is that different, uh, campaigning for a statewide election as opposed to a regional election? That's right. In the first case, you would be dealing only with Philadelphia. The second thing is to go through the

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state. And going to a lot of people from different kinds of backgrounds. than it was. Uh, this city where I was born and raised. And uh very interesting. How did you appeal to uh people outside of the Philadelphia area? Just because I'm charming. I'm only teasing.

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Was it difficult? Do you, do you have any memories that stick out in terms of your campaigning? Oh, I found it very interesting because I like people and I like to deal with them. And to get their views as well as my own. And uh I

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found that to be a very interesting thing because it changed a lot of views that I had. When you were able to talk to you. Uh A lot of people uh criticize Pennsylvania's practice of holding statewide elections for positions on the Pennsylvania Supreme Court. Do you

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think that this method is appropriate? I think it is and I'll tell you why. The judicial system controls the life and status and the method of uh life in this city. And the state. And certainly the people should make it, uh, we are a democratic country.

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And it's consistent To have it that way. As a pro now many other uh do it by appointment. Which does not give the input of the people who are going to have to. Uh, be under these people who they select for them. Do you think that

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that process compromises the court's independence at all? No, I don't. I think it's just consistent with our system. of governments. During your 1st 10 years um on the court as a justice, what did you see your role as um in terms of you being an African

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American man and a leader also within the African American community? Mhm. Did you, did you have any particular goals when you first came in? I wanted to be the best lawyer in town. That's all was my original, yeah. See, my father was one of the excellent,

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uh. And I always wanted to say I can beat him. And so I had to be there and then we went on and on. But he always wanted me to be competitive to him. Um, after you were elected to your second term in 1981, did your

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goals change or evolve after having been on the court for a while? Are you talking about the police? I'm talking about the Supreme Court. Uh yeah. No, I enjoyed it the entire time. Did you um? After you were installed as the Chief Justice, and that's by

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whoever, whichever justice has seniority. Is that correct? That's correct. OK. And so you were uh installed in '84 and you were the first African American to lead a state judicial system. Um, what did that moment mean for you? Uh It's because I want it to be

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the top. That's what my father always told me. If you're going to do something, be the best. Do you think that you being in that position, um. Enhanced African Americans in Pennsylvania and everywhere. I think it did. I think it did, and you can see the

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difference over the years since then. You were plagued with some opposition during your time on the court, uh, by a fellow justice, uh, Larson, who later was removed from the court in 1994, but what was your working relationship with him and how did you maintain cohesion

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in the court? You knew he was one of Hitler's babies. Did you know that? Were you aware that I was aware of that. So that's I can understand. Can you explain a little more about what you mean by Hitler's babies? I think that's pretty obvious why

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he would not be enamored with me. Particularly being in his boss. Do you think that the rift between both or his uh Dislike of you. Do you think that that affected the cohesion and uh camaraderie of the court of the justices? Well, fortunately, the rest of

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the court didn't pay very much attention to his concern. Um, do you, so, so that you were still able to lead everyone effectively. That's very true, yes. What do you think helped you helped you maintain the focus and your purpose um during this tough time? Because

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they told what I've been taught by my parents that if you. If you're going to be. Something you decide what you want to do. And then be the best that you can. You've often been labeled a judge who places a lot of emphasis on civility and

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decorum. And you said that those are accurate labels of you. How do you see the role of decorum and civility in the judicial system? I agree with that. That it needs to have a. A large role. That's true. What, what do you think that that does

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for the court, I mean for for people, for the citizens? Well, the one thing justice means fairness. And it should not make a difference as to who the individual is, but what the individual has done, and you assess it that way. And things like uh racism

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and those things have absolutely nothing to do. the judiciary. While you were uh Chief Justice, you were also president of all the state Supreme Court Chief Justices. That's correct. What was the title of this organization and what did you all do? Pardon me? Uh, what was

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the what did the organization do and what was your role? Well, this is the uh body of all of the uh. Judicial districts. And we Get together to understand your problems in your areas, to get your views on it and our views on them, and it

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helps, I think, to be able to have that connection. You retired two years earlier than you were supposed to in July of 1996. What made you decide to step down? I hate to be thrown out. So I chose myself and I was tired at that point.

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Do you think that the justices should be made to retire at age 70? Well, I, I think it, it's reasonable after a certain period of time. Um, I understand that it's customary for justices to keep a journal, uh, of their time while they were on the

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court in different cases. That's administrative procedures. Have you, how many journals do you have? Oh God. Oh, I, we had to take all of the each year we get a new journal. Have you looked through these journals? They're around here someplace. If you look through them,

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what do you think it would reveal about your administration? Excellent. No, uh, I really did give a great deal of consideration in making those judges. And uh hopefully, But I know that no one is in a position to be always correct. Do you have any um

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things that you look back on that maybe while you were Chief Justice that you wish you would have done differently? Or that you're very proud of. Not really, uh, I am not, I don't resort anything that I did make. Not that doesn't mean that I may

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have made a mistake. But I didn't think at that time it was a mistake and even reviewing it, I don't think it was a mistake. So I don't have anything that I feel that. I had made a judgment that was incorrect. If I'd done that, I

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would have gone back to the court and changed it. How do you think the court is faring now without you? Oh, I don't know how they make it. Now they're doing it. We have, I'm very, very uh happy about the court we have now. It's an

00:26:38.689 - 00:26:55.420

excellent court. Now I'd like to shift gears a little and ask you some questions that'll give us some insight about you as a jurist, an African American leader, and also a historical figure. Um, I know you're aware of the controversy surrounding. And I was a lawyer

00:26:55.420 - 00:27:24.020

also, um, the controversy surrounding the lack of minority clerks on the United States Supreme Court. Uh, there have been 428 clerks for the recent justices and only 7 have been blacks. What is your take on on this situation? Mhm. Now, The problem is that Actually, the

00:27:24.020 - 00:27:56.150

jurors should take their take at at who they would want and comfortable with. But on the other hand, We don't have. The number of Black justices that would be on that court and there should be, I think, uh. Some Avenue of making sure that The black

00:27:56.280 - 00:28:29.640

clerk. With the church. Um, do you think that the problem and I think as I understand it. A number of the uh justices have picked black uh uh individuals. But you should. Let, let me put it this way. It's expected that if a black goes in,

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he's going to bring a black or or some of the other so that they there is uh the access to have the black jurist and he has a right to pick his own but hopefully. The justices, when they uh make a decision, it should be based.

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Domin uh students in the area. Is there a purse. To do that I've had with all that. And your um uh. The color of your skin belong to. How did that affect you, knowing that something like that still occurs. Well it was whether it was a

00:29:31.280 - 00:30:19.130

black or a white. It was in inappropriate. Not the color. It's the fact of doing that to an individual. Who isn't deserved that kind of treatment. Do you see race and gender having an impact on the administration of justice? I don't think it really is from

00:30:19.130 - 00:31:03.709

the experiences I've had. Among other jurists. I don't think you have that. That we may have had. 20 years ago. 10 years, and I think that a lot of that has gone away. What do you think has helped that? Uh, disappear. In the justice system. I

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think one of the important thing is As you had more and more black. Jurists. And more uh uh attorneys. Who can Serve their interests. Do you think that um Judges and attorneys who are of a particular uh racial or ethnic persuasion, do you think that they

00:31:48.540 - 00:32:16.369

should take those things into consideration uh they shouldn't be on the bench that should have absolutely nothing to do. It's the person and what they have done. Or not or did not do exactly um. You are known to believe that the state constitution. is a vital

00:32:16.369 - 00:32:45.339

source of individual rights, but that the Bill of Rights is the foundation. Could you explain that philosophy? Yeah, the state on its own has set its own which more expensive than uh the uh. From the uh rest of the of the country and that's one thing

00:32:45.339 - 00:33:14.290

that I've been very proud of our uh. Rights A bill of rights in our, uh, Pennsylvania. Do you think that um can you uh name any cases that would Emphasize the uh broadening or either the establishment of rights for Pennsylvanians here during your time on the

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court. When I was, I could tell you all of the color and at this point in life, I retired and then let some other people worry about that. Let in a lot of uh opinions I've written in. You can determine from that what my view was

00:33:40.290 - 00:34:11.010

at those times. Do you uh see the citizen's role as holding America accountable for the promises of fairness and justice? I don't follow you on that. What about presenting a fair and just society? Certainly that's an obligation. It was, it's something that should never have happened,

00:34:13.159 - 00:34:40.560

uh, and it's certainly inconsistent what America promised. And I think they've now attempted. To make those changes and I think that It's a very, very important thing that has happened. What the problems in America um have definitely improved since the activism of the civil rights and

00:34:41.250 - 00:35:03.320

but there are still exist issues out there today. Well, there's never going to be a perfect situation. But the awareness of the problem is the important thing. Do you think that people today need to have a good understanding of the judicial system and politics in order

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to change these institutional problems? I'm not so sure what you're asking me. Well, uh, do you see, uh, I guess let's take people in Philadelphia, do you see, uh, citizens as being very aware of their individual rights and, um, as a citizen and the role that

00:35:24.820 - 00:35:56.399

they play in the judicial system? from the judicial. Uh, I think that our system. At this point it's fair. Uh, there may be. Incidents where some people have been prejudiced or something of that nature. But that is not. The general view situation. And uh Usually when

00:35:56.399 - 00:36:22.080

something like that does occur. There are Roads to open up and correct. Those kinds of misjudgments. What do you see as lawyers, judges, law students role in educating the community around them? That's correct. What do you think, what kind of things do you think they could

00:36:22.080 - 00:36:54.709

do to try and educate? Well, the main thing is to be there available when they do need. And it's important for the black, uh. Young lawyers to be there to allow our people people. To have the full rights. As given by the uh our Constitution, both

00:36:54.709 - 00:37:22.899

state and and country. Uh Can you give any advice to Penn students, uh, in particular African American, uh, Penn students about connecting with the area in West Philadelphia? What about West? One thing is I was born and raised in West Philadelphia. I think that's a wonderful

00:37:22.899 - 00:37:45.639

place. Mhm I still have a house there. Mhm. Um, what the students have been doing recently is, uh, going into the area high schools and middle schools and tutoring kids and, uh, teaching them about uh their their basic rights and kind of street law. um, do

00:37:45.639 - 00:38:14.479

you encourage programs like that? I'm not so sure what you're saying. I think that The color of the skin should have absolutely nothing to do with the rights of persons. Uh, whether you're oriental or anything of that nature, if you're an American, you are an American,

00:38:14.610 - 00:38:39.800

period, and there shouldn't be a difference based on that. It's the action of the individual and their behavior. That is to be considered. How do you um? Although I I completely agree with that, how do you, uh, make people who don't agree with that see, uh,

00:38:39.810 - 00:38:56.520

that they should look at your actions and your character instead of the color of your skin or instead of your gender? That's true, and it's something we've been fighting that for a long time, and we're intending to continue to do it. You don't have a quick

00:38:56.520 - 00:39:27.969

answer for that one. No, my point is that we have to continue to fight to make sure that there should be no distance made between any group Italians. Jewish or any other. And others have also had the problems of being mistreated because of religion or wherever

00:39:27.969 - 00:39:56.760

they came from. Do you think that an increase in uh minority members as attorneys or judges helps uh helps the country move forward in terms of looking at someone's character. Definitely. And lastly, what do you see as your legacy and contribution to Pennsylvania, to Philadelphia, and

00:39:56.760 - 00:40:23.110

to uh the African American community? The idea to show you that you can go to the top and uh. It's the, not the color of your skin. But the ability that you have to offer. And The color should have absolutely nothing to do with it. It's

00:40:23.110 - 00:40:47.510

the ability of that person. And I guess personally for me, what one piece of advice would you give to a young attorney starting out. Start off that you are a lawyer, period. Not a black one, not a white one, not a oriental one. You're a lawyer

00:40:47.510 - 00:41:09.159

and you've got to be a good lawyer, period. The color of the skin. It has nothing to do with it. Well, I appreciate you for your time, uh, Judge Nix, and it was really wonderful to meet you and the one thing I want you to know.

00:41:10.080 - 00:41:32.899

The color of your skin. Doesn't in any way put you down. It's your little mind and how good you are. And you don't have to take a 2nd place. You are an American. And period. And that's the end of it. And it's then up to you.

00:41:34.100 - 00:42:03.540

To be What you want to be. There's that's definitely words to live by and and we can see more and more that's being accepted. It definitely is. Thank you again for your time. My pleasure. And we wish you all the luck. But always remember, forget Keller.

00:42:04.719 - 00:42:37.129

You are. A female. And you are a lawyer. And you can do whatever you want to do, and that's up to you. And I'm sure you're gonna do a great job, OK. Oh, that's great. And the Everybody, oh, I have my camera and I would love

00:42:37.129 - 00:42:57.550

to take a picture of you and your wife, you and me, OK, you by yourself, where I'm gonna put that back on. I took it off the hook. Another sad thing about that. I have to put some something on my back. I want to get a

00:42:57.550 - 00:43:29.979

picture of both of you together. You never got the chance to drink your coffee. See, I know the moment I take go ahead wait, I'm just gonna. Well Yeah. The proof of living. Uh-huh Yeah. All right. When you want to face the wall. Oh yeah, the

00:43:29.979 - 00:44:03.310

desk, yeah, those desks are so. Right. All right, 123. That sounds good. All right, and then I wanna get one of you alone and then one with me. Oh yeah, but even better was here. Oh yeah, and, and Bahia. Bahia, South America. Oh wow, that's the

00:44:03.310 - 00:44:27.129

sister city of Philadelphia. Oh, is it San Salvador, OK, yeah, when he was president, uh, we have this is Rio, I believe, yeah, see this combination of well, after I, um, I'm gonna study for the bar here and take it in July and then um. Oh,

00:44:27.360 - 00:44:49.620

we'll keep our fingers crossed for you, but I'm gonna try and do some traveling. I after this war is over, Italy is too close to Koso. Anyway, there are so many gorgeous places in Europe where you're so close

00:44:49.620 - 00:44:55.280

by, yes, take the rail lines. You can purchase a Euro rail.