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Today is December 1st, 2000. We're at the home of Henry T. Reath, 1948 graduate of the University of Pennsylvania Law School in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Mr. Reith was a partner at Dwayne Morris Hecker in Philadelphia and served as chairman of the litigation department from 1971 to 1984.

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He's presently of counsel at Dwayne Morris. Mr. Reith's practice focused primarily on First Amendment rights, and he was also a strong advocate of judicial reform. He presently focuses on prisoners' rights and death penalty reform. Death penalty reform and. So, Mr. Reith, where were you born? I

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was born right here in Chestnut Hill, Philadelphia. And um I was born uh at the Chestnut Hill Hospital. And to be quite precise about it, I would say that. Uh, 81 years from this coming December 11th. Will be the anniversary of my. Birth. Did you grow

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up in Philadelphia? I did. I grew up in Philadelphia and I went to um. Uh, elementary private school and Chestnut Hill to Chestnut Hill Academy. Until The first form. And then I moved to Um, Boarding school and I went to Saint Paul's School in Concord, New

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Hampshire. Was that your first experience away from home? Yes, yes, it was, and it was, it was an interesting experience. Um, I um Well, let's let's put it that way. It was an interesting experience. It was quite different. And I soon learned that. Make friends and.

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Get along uh with my new friends. And it was a very worthwhile experience for me. Did you have any particular hobbies in high school? I've had one hobby all my life and if you look around this room and and out on the porch or anywhere else

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you'll see all kinds of photographs. Photography has been my hobby. Since I was about 10 years old. How did you become interested in photography? I don't really recall. I, I know that um. I, I had a um. Uh like a camera. Which was the uh. Best

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35 millimeter camera available at the time. And um I uh I got great use out of it and, uh, over the years I've shot many, many pictures. Following Saint Paul's School, you entered Princeton University. That's correct. What made you decide to attend Princeton? Well, um, a

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number of reasons. Um, My grandfather. Was Henry B. Thompson. And he had been a trustee at Princeton for many, many years. And um I had another grandfather. Uh, Thomas Reith. Who was um. A graduate of Penn. And every so often when they had rowing events on

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the Schuylkill River. Penn raced against Princeton. And my grandfathers, he put up a dollar or so, but Uh, and if Princeton won, I want the money if, uh. Pen one, my older brother got the money. And I distinctly remember that I got more money because Princeton

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won more of the crew races. Uh, hardly a reason to go. No, I, I wanted to go to a liberal arts college. I um I knew that that uh Princeton was a very strong liberal arts college. And um Among other things I was very interested in

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history. And I know that it had an exceptionally good history program. You credit Princeton with giving you the concept of enlightened self-interest. What is enlightened self-interest? Well, enlightened self-interest means that you look after yourself. But Keeping in mind. That there's a higher goal which is how

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you can serve your fellow people. And um There's a conflict in terms between the enlightened concept and the self-interest concept. And um That's basically uh what that's all about. Did you have any favorite professors at Princeton? I did, but be honest with you, I'm not sure

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I can remember. Many of them. I do want to remember one in particular. His name was Professor Roy Welch. And he taught courses in music. Music had always been a a great love of my mother. And it rubbed off on, on me, but not to the

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same extent. And I um. Several of Roy Welch's uh. Programs on classical music and its roots. And it was one of the most valuable and worthwhile experiences because I learned so much. About classical music that even today I I fall back on my memory as I

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listen to various pieces. And um I'm terribly proud of of the wonderful musical training that I got. But, but the, obviously the. The um The the the principal. Area of interest and focus of my interest in the area in which I majored was history. And um

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Uh, I focused more on modern American history. Than I did, I mean obviously on studies the history of. Greece and the early parts of our culture. But um I uh I found uh History very challenging. Because one could learn from. History, uh, the experiences of other

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countries and other people and. Mistakes and how to avoid them. Are there any books which greatly influenced your development? I can't say that there are. I've not been. Uh, a, a good reader and um I think that part of that is because in my professional career

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as a lawyer I had so much legal reading to do. That I rarely had the chance and the leisure to read. Um, novels and, and, and other books. I, I read some history books and uh obviously, but uh. Uh, that's about it on that. Did you

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finish college early to enter the war? No, I. Graduated in the class of 1937. And I took off. About 3 weeks. To spend part of the summer vacation with my family in Maine and then I went down. To um Register for the army. I was in

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I had gone through the ROTC. And I was taken into the army as a 2nd lieutenant. And uh my first assignment was going down to Fort Bragg, North Carolina. And um That that's where I got my uh my start. You were a field artillery officer. Yes.

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What were your responsibilities? Well, as a field artillery officer, I was, I should add an additional word. I was a field artillery liaison officer. Which meant that I was assigned. To an infantry division or an infantry commander. But um He, um, I was not under his

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direct command. I was there to advise on how to use artillery most effectively. Where were you first sent in the war? Well, I was sent to uh England very briefly. Uh, and then almost immediately. Um, We moved into the linen. I guess it would be in

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1938. Where I was um. Um, And and then they um. Uh, well, I guess that's about it. You earned 3 battle citations and the Bronze Star for bravery and action. Yes. What lessons did you take from the war? Well, I learned. Look out for yourself but

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look out for others. And again that's the same concept as enlightened self-interest. Um, The thing I learned most from my experience in the army. It was a wonderful opportunity to meet. Young men from all over the country and from all walks of life. I had been

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very privileged living in a small residential community going. To a private boarding school going to uh. Uh, elite, uh, university. And in the army. One soon came in contact with what I call many just ordinary people. And I learned tremendously from my experiences with them. And

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uh I think it was one of the great experiences that I had. Uh, in, in my, uh, education and my growing up. The opportunity to meet people from completely different walks of life. And to understand that they had different values and that their values were were

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good. Um, and, um. But um That was about it. Upon returning from the war, did you intend to enter law school? Yes, I did. I um I had um applied to law school. Um, While I was still in the army. And of course my father. Had

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been a was a senior partner in a major Philadelphia law firm. And he encouraged me and, and helped open the door. And um I, uh, really didn't look around too much for law schools. I. Concluded that the University of Pennsylvania law school was a superb law

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school. And one that would enrich my life, which it did. What subject did you enjoy the most in law school? Oh, I, I think there were so many. Um, One of the subjects that I enjoyed. Was at a trust. Uh, I, um, later became quite active

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in, in at a trust work. And um I, I, I've always felt that. That our antitrust laws. Have been a wonderful. Um, shelter to protect our. Country and to protect small business. From being uh overwhelmed by big business. Did you always want to be a litigator?

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I guess I did, although I, I can't say that that's what I set out to be, but um. When I um. Joined my my law firm. Uh, of Dwayne Morrison Hetner. Um, That was the area where they needed. Help And I found it a terribly challenging

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and interesting and worthwhile experience. The opportunity to um. Represent people. On particular causes. Uh, to research and study. Uh, the law. And um to um. Help them Um, Gain a better understanding of the law. Did you go to work for Dwayne Morris immediately after law school?

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Yes, I did. I can tell you an amusing story that that that that sticks in my memory. Uh, I had met the senior partner of our firm. A man by the name of Mr. Claude Smith, he was a distinguished older gentleman. He was a graduate of

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Swarthmore College and on the board and and very well regarded particularly in the Quaker community. And he was always immaculately well dressed. He was a little bit heavy set. And so when I came into the office for my first day. Um, I saw this man behind

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the desk. And it looked exactly like Mr. Smith. And I went over and I shook his hand and I said hello, Mr. Smith. I'm The new lawyer on the block. Um, And I expected him to say welcome to Dwayne Morrison Hecker. And the response came back,

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I'm not Mr. Smith. I'm Pop Griffiths, the mailman. And that was a little bit humiliating for me, but uh. It was amusing I thought. Who became your professional mentors at Dwayne Morris? Well, Um, I can't honestly say that I had professional mentors because in many. When

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I came to the farm. There were not Many, uh, experienced litigators. So I was sort of branching out on my own. Uh, I guess my Closest mentor. Was Morris Duane, the senior partner. He always had a lot of confidence in me and I returned it by

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confidence in him. And um It was um It was a wonderful relationship. He was a marvelous person. From 1971 to 1984, you served as chairman of the litigation Department. What were your responsibilities in this position? Well, um. First of all, to assign cases. Uh, secondly, to.

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Say that the People in the department. We're getting exposed to um. Litigation practices. And um That they were were were learning the skills and the art of being a litigator. Uh, a litigator is a very special kind of person who has to. Constantly change roles. By

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putting himself in the role of the client. And um By um Uh, and, and learning the strengths and weaknesses. Of the case I think one of the most important things I learned. Was to. Very Vigorously cross examine. My own witnesses to be sure that they would

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not be caught by surprise. Uh, when the adversary began to Uh A cross examine What makes an attorney an effective advocate in court? Well, I think the most singly important part is, is absolute. Belief In the integrity and the rightness of your client's cause. Uh, I

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have a client who used to say, and I learned from him the expression. Uh, if you're right, fight. And I've always followed that uh if you believe, if you believe your client's cause or you believe your client. Then it's OK to litigate, I think, to, to

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litigate a case where the client doesn't really believe in it. is, is, is, is foolhardy. In the area of practice you focused on is First Amendment rights. Yes, you've argued several cases before the Supreme Court involving First Amendment rights, right, most notably Sloan v. Lemon, Meek

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v. Pittinger, in which you argued for the right of parents and students to receive public funds to supplement their secular education. What was at issue in these cases? Well, the issue was whether or not Uh, giving public funds. To private institutions. Uh, violated, uh. The Constitution.

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Um, And um We, we, um. We managed to argue success and and also. That um. There was another element involved that that. Uh, it was argued that um giving funds to secondary schools. Particularly those that taught religion. Uh, constituted, um. The um Uh, The institution getting

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involved. In advocating uh religious beliefs. Uh, To uh Uh, to the students. And uh What we sought to do was to establish, and I think we succeeded. That uh When the government gave money to private education, whether it was uh um a a religious school or

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a secular school. It was not Uh, the the money in in our situation were all based on tuition grants. And that what we were doing was giving money not to the school. But to parents and the students themselves. And that avoided the. Harsh dividing line between.

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Uh, Um Uh, becoming involved in in uh. And and religious uh activity. You I'm sorry. All right, yep, we just needed to uh. Yeah, right now I, I neglected to use one phrase that I think uh is important in, in the, um. And in these cases

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that I argued in the Supreme Court and that is the separation of church and state. Uh, that is absolutely prescribed and, and mandated by our US Constitution. So what we had to do was to find a way to get around that. And uh It was that

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the. Money was given to the students or to the parents. And they then made their own free choices. And Uh, the, the funds were not used, for example, to. Hire a um um. A Catholic priest or an Episcopal. Uh Uh, minister. Because uh. Uh, they were

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given to the to the students. And and their families to underwrite the cost of their education. You also argued in board of trustees of State University of New York versus Fox for the right of free speech at state universities. Yes. What was at issue in that

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case? You know, I'm embarrassed to say, and I should have checked it out. I do not actually remember. Uh, the issue I. No, I'm not I'm, I'm not gonna be able to help you on that. It was an it was an interesting case. And um But

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with the passage of time. Uh, it slipped my memory. How do you perceive the importance of the First Amendment? Well, I think the First Amendment is, is probably the singly most important part of our US Constitution and our part of our US government because. If people

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aren't being allowed to speak freely. Uh, without government, uh, intervention and government control. Then you don't have free and independent, uh, citizens. Uh, you have the equivalent of a military or a parochial type of state. What is it like arguing before the Supreme Court? Well, Uh

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It's It's a frightening event. A little bit Because um. You're standing up there before. I think there were only 7 justices when I argued some of my cases. But um If you really believe in your case. You can overcome any momentary. Apprehension or fright by getting

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down and getting into the heart of the case and getting a discussion going, I think. One of the most important parts of, of um oral argument and oral advocacy is inviting questions. Um And um If, if, if any of you were watching the. Supreme Court Today

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hearing the Florida case. Uh, there were plenty of questions being asked by the court. And that's good for the advocate because when, when the court asks a question. It's an indication that there's something on their mind and and it gives you an opportunity to get around

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it and get behind it and turn it around. Is preparation a must? Absolutely. You cannot prepare too much. Um, particularly for the Supreme Court, you've got to. Get all the major cases and read them and be familiar with them. And um Um, Know the facts and

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know the outcome. Because there's nothing more embarrassing than to make a mistake. Before the justices of the Supreme Court. Another area of litigation you focused on was judicial pensions and judicial reform. You were chief organizer and co-chairman of good Judges for Philadelphia. You co-chaired the committee

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to support the governor's judicial appointments, and you were a member of the Governor's commission on judicial reform. How did you become interested in judicial reform? Well, Being a litigator, I felt that. It was terribly important that that just that judges. Uh Be fair I'm not politically

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motivated. And to be very honest with you. Even to this day, many of our judges in our state courts and to a lesser extent in our federal courts are politically motivated because they've been appointed by politicians. And um they feel that they have a a primary

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duty to um. Uh, support. The views that the politician advances. And uh I have had always felt that this was absolutely wrong. And that the success of our Free and independent. System of government. Dependent upon more than anything else to have highly qualified impartial judges who

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are not beholden to anybody. You've been an advocate of a merit system judiciary in Pennsylvania. What is a merit system merit system means that that uh. Judges are selected. Based on merit, not on. Political qualifications and. The merit system Um, Analyzes the background and the experience

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of the lawyer in question. And Makes that the all important deciding factor. Uh, and disregards entirely. Uh, political motivation, political backing. And that kind of thing. Among your numerous awards, many have been in recognition of your work in judicial reform, including the Philadelphia Bar Association. Fidelity

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award. The Herbert Harley Award of the American Judicature Society, the Learned Hand Award of the American Jewish Committee, and a special award of Service from the Pennsylvania Conference of State Trial Judges. Are you still involved with judicial reform? Not Uh, not really, um. I, uh, I'm

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still very interested in it. But um. I think that I've passed the mantle on to other people who carried that cause. I would finally like to talk about the pro bono work you have been involved in. Has pro bono work been particularly important in your career?

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I think it's terribly important because I, I happen to feel that uh that, that, um. Lawyers, uh. Have a duty. To the public And part of their obligation of being a lawyer. Is to serve people who need legal help. And to make that dividing line not

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on the basis of wealth or money but on the basis of. Of justness of the cause. And uh so. Uh yes, I would say that um. Pro bono work has been one of my. Strongest um motivations. And more recently in my older years as I became.

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Uh, of counsel to the firm. Uh, I became very active in, in, uh, in, in, uh, in our justice system and in our prison. Work And I found that um. The injustices that were visited on. Uh, people Caught in the criminal justice system. We really unfair

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and outrageous. And that uh something had to be done about it and and and uh so back to the old slogan if you're right, fight. You served as a board member of the Pennsylvania Prison Society. What were your responsibilities on that board? Well, I still serve

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on that board. And um Our responsibilities are to. Say that the um. Prisons are administered. Fairly and properly. That the inmates rights. Are are protected. Um, And um That where there's um. There are, there are malfunctions in the law that cause injustice. Uh, they ought to

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be changed, for example. One of the most Serious issues in criminal practice. Are trying cases it's between the two levels of of of of the offense. Uh, manslaughter and first degree murder. And the dividing line between those two is very. Esoteric And and and very. Difficult

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to articulate. And One of the things that I have been very concerned about, and this has been a concern not only of mine but of people who study judicial reform. And that is to find a better way and a clearer way to get clear understandable language.

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To explain the juries in their deliberations what their duties and obligations are. And I think that that's one of the most important areas. Um, still to be focused on because we're just beginning to see that movement under underway. And um It's um Uh, it's terribly important.

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You were also appointed by Mayor Rendell to the mayor's Criminal Justice Coordinating Commission. What are the responsibilities of that commission? Well, there again, uh we were. Uh, concerned with, with, uh, inmates rights. That um. Uh, that they weren't, uh, overwhelmed by unfair. Prosecutors. That um. There

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was uh I guess the most singly most important issue. Was Evidence of guilt. And uh We were trying to find ways to sort out how. To get to the bottom of of of of evidence. And uh That That was uh uh was and still is a

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terribly important project. What other pro bono activities have you been involved in? Well, I guess From time to time I've represented individuals. And, and, and really relatively minor cases that I don't remember. But the most important ones that I'm involved in. Our pro bono representation of

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inmates who have been convicted of first degree murder. When they never should have been because the evidence was insufficient. Uh, I have not had any death cases. But I'm I've been very active recently. And urging Um, That um We have a uh moratorium. On the death

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sentence. So that it can be studied. And we can bring out many of the shortcomings of that system. It's gonna take a break for one minute. Just pick up with the next question. You have remarked that you heed the advice of Prince Niccolo Machiavelli, who wrote,

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There is nothing more difficult to take in hand, nor more perilous to conduct, nor more uncertain in its outcome than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order. How has this advice impressed you? Well, it's just, it, it, it impresses me because what

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it says is that if you're gonna come up with something new. You damn well better have your facts. You better be right. And you better, uh. Uh, find ways to articulate the justice of your cause. Is it the lawyer's job to take the lead in the

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introduction of a new order? Well, I think it is. I think that lawyers have a duty of public service. And uh I, uh, I've always believed in that. And uh I've always been involved in many aspects of public service. In other words, one shouldn't just. Be

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a lawyer to make money. But uh of course you have to make money to get along and keep an office going. But uh You have an obligation to give a certain portion of your time. To uh Uh, other public duties and responsibilities. You've described yourself as

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a liberal democrat. What does it mean to be a liberal democrat? Well, I think I use uh one of the writings about me that is it's in there. That Being a liberal democrat means. To liberate And to Get at the truth. Uh, regardless of Personal Privilege

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or or partisan gain. What advice would you give to a young lawyer just starting out today? Well, I think my advice would be. To be a litigator. And particularly The best experience that I can think of for being a litigator. is to Be fortunate enough to

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be appointed a clerk. To a trial judge. And I emphasize that. In many respects to be a clerk for the Supreme a Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States is a tremendous honor. But if a lawyer is um. A clerk For um A um

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Uh, I said I lost my train of thought there. Laws are, uh, uh. A clerk for a trial judge, a clerk for a trial judge. For a trial judge. Yes. Uh When, when, when he works with the trial judge. He sees the whole. Uh, drama of

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the courtroom opening up. And he learns the strengths and weaknesses of the case he learns. How to make a good argument, how to make a bad argument. Um, and, um. He gets a lot of experience and value from sharing those thoughts with his judge. And he's

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called upon frequently to make recommendations for important decisions, which is a heavy responsibility. Uh, so I think that um. There there's nothing that's more valuable. Than than being a uh a clerk to a trial judge and there you see the whole courtroom drama open up. Before

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your eyes. And uh you learn an awful lot about The mistakes of others and how you should And do, uh, do better yourself. What has been most memorable and satisfying in your career? I think the most memorable and satisfying. Was the case of Patty Carbone. Patty

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Carbone. Had been Arrested and charged with first degree murder. For killing a man. And She had. Was um At the time of the incident. She had been walking down the road to her. Friend's house. And a man in a car came by and picked her up.

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And he Asked her if she'd have a ride and she said yes and so she got in the car and they went down the road a little distance and he pulled off onto a side road. And there he stopped the car. She got scared and ran

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out. He chased her and they wrestled. And Then and um. And a moment of of of of fear and passion. She um. Reached into her pocketbook. She had a um. 8 inch butcher's knife that she always carried in her pocketbook for self defense. And uh She

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um Reached over and stabbed him and and and and the man died. And uh. She was very poorly represented at the uh at the original trial. And uh She was um Convicted as I recall. Uh, a first degree murder. The case was appealed. And the court

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said, In no way can the facts give rise to more than. Voluntary manslaughter. There were a lot of extenuating circumstances which I won't take time to. Dwell on Which I Felt had to be brought out. Uh, one, the fact that she'd never known this man before.

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To the fact that this man Had been seen in in other bars. Um, In the area Getting drunk and groping women. And uh a lot of other evidence that I don't recall specifically, but the point is. We brought all this out. And convinced the court. But

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Well, I know that the jury was not given proper instructions as to Uh, motivation. And um So we, the court ultimately uh set aside the uh the conviction. And She was offered an opportunity. To plead guilty to a lesser offense and let the case go or

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go to trial. And I advise her. To um Plead guilty to the lesser offense. Which well eventually we got uh. Reversed. And now she is a free woman. Um, Without Being under the threat of a. 20 or 30 year life sentence without parole. Mr. Reith, it's

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been a pleasure speaking with you today. Well, um, Paul, it's been, it's been a pleasure for me too, and, and, uh, I admire the work that you've done in preparing for this conference and the questions that you asked. And I hope I've been able to give

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you uh. Truthful answers and and and satisfactory ones. It's been excellent thank you. OK. OK. Uh, one other thing, um. Uh, Mark, that I mentioned, I should have mentioned. of work that I was particularly proud of was the job that we did a number of years

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ago. I can't remember the date now. Uh, When I chaired a committee called. Uh, good judges for Pennsylvania. Uh, and then we had one good judges for Philadelphia. There was a time when there were a number of vacancies. And uh There were a lot of good

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people who had um. Uh, expressed an interest. Uh, and, and on merit were highly qualified above. The people who ultimately were appointed. Uh, as political cronies. And uh we became so upset about it that we decided to upset the legal community and and we did. And

00:51:57.979 - 00:52:36.350

then from that we build a base. And we. 5 judges. Nominated Or or rather elected as as judges. Uh, because of the effort that we had. And um They are some of the outstanding judges. Not any longer because most of them have retired, but. It, it,

00:52:36.469 - 00:53:04.330

it provided a tremendous shot in the arm. To have judges who came on based entirely on merit without any political backing at all. And uh That to me was very gratifying. And it's been one of the driving forces. Uh, in my, uh, public service life. Great.

00:53:12.159 - 00:53:34.580

Good afternoon. My name is Jay Ritberg. It's March 21st, 2002, and today I'll be interviewing Peter Leoorris, class of '56. I'm in the University of Pennsylvania Biddle Law Library. I was here For our 40th reunion, which would have been uh 4 or 5 years ago. Wow,

00:53:35.719 - 00:53:52.739

they really have have done a lot of work on the on the old hall. Oh, the whole place became a quadra. There's just, there was just one building one here on the corner building. What What did you say? OK, let's do 25. I'm just trying to

00:53:53.139 - 00:54:29.850

make notes of when I transitioning. 31. 37 And Mm Nice little room you have here. Yeah Yeah that sound pretty sound soundproof too. I guess she's learned a lot about facilities over the years, huh? I don't know, but this one, this one, it's nice size

00:54:29.850 - 00:54:44.899

too. It's not a, it's not a little cubby hole, cause you would like it to be larger, but. OK. Are you ready to start? OK. Um, good afternoon, Chancellor Lee Corus. I wanna thank you for coming down and talking to the panor Legal History Project. I'm

00:54:44.899 - 00:55:04.739

gonna start off by asking you a few questions about your childhood. First of all, when were you born? I was born on April 9, 1931 in West Philadelphia in the second floor front of 6029 Walnut Street. Now your profile says that your parents migrated from Greece.

00:55:04.919 - 00:55:27.159

When and why did they come to America? Well, my parents came in 1906, my father. And 1908 my mother respectively and um. They came as children. My father was 16. He, he joined his, his two sisters and 3 brothers here who were older. My mother came

00:55:27.159 - 00:55:44.370

at the age of 2, at the age of 6, excuse me, with her sister and my grandmother, and they were joining my grandfather who came in 1902. They, you know, there are two reasons why two basic reasons why people have come to the United States. And

00:55:44.370 - 00:56:01.969

why they immigrate one is economic, the other is political, um, getting away from repression. My parents were of the former. They came because there was they were in in the village, um, in the agricultural setting. There was really nothing in the way of a prospect for

00:56:01.969 - 00:56:16.600

the future, and they were, they brought with them, uh, uh, basically what they had on their had in their in their pockets and in their in their in their spirit in their in their mind and their brains. But not much more, so they came for economic

00:56:16.600 - 00:56:31.159

reasons. OK. To make a better life for their children primarily not themselves as much as their children. OK, now what was it like growing up as the youngest of four children? Oh, I had, well, I was very fortunate. I had 3 older sisters, all of whom

00:56:31.159 - 00:56:53.790

are, are artistic. Aliki, A L I K I is a very famous children's uh artist and writer. Um she's next to me above me and then Vilma is a. Is a a a professor in in NYU and a writer. In food and fabrics. Um, the food

00:56:53.790 - 00:57:15.040

of Greece, um, dietary, uh, international, uh, dietary cookbooks, um, she's quite famous and my older sister Helen is, um, an actress and you know she's now pushing 80, but it was great because I was the only boy and in that kind of a setting, a Greek

00:57:15.040 - 00:57:33.790

American setting, the sun always was number one, so I was spoiled rotten. And I really miss it. What were some of your interests and hobbies growing up? I was all my interests were sports. I had to I had to play the piano and, and, and we

00:57:33.790 - 00:57:46.260

were very musically oriented, but I would take the money sometime and go to the ball games instead of the music lesson trying to get by. I, I was really terrible at meeting my responsibilities as a kid because I was always able to get out of them,

00:57:46.790 - 00:58:06.250

but it was my greatest interests were, were, uh. In sports and music to some extent as well, not quite as much, um, but it was in every sport. And I had to work at my father's grocery store, which was a 10th and Spruce Streets. And I

00:58:06.250 - 00:58:20.100

was um I basically worked at everything he made me do which I couldn't get out of. Uh, we would, for instance, get up and he would wake me up on a Saturday at 4 in the morning to go to Dock Street, which is where the Society

00:58:20.100 - 00:58:38.060

Hill towers are they're located on right on the river that's the Delaware River, uh, to go purchase from the wholesalers the fruits and vegetables for the day. And it was uh it was it was an incredible experience. um, I was barely awake we would go all

00:58:38.060 - 00:58:50.939

the way around these four blocks looking at everything he would price everything in his mind in his head, and then we would return and get the best values, and I always thought it was such a waste of time. Why don't you just go, you know, buy

00:58:50.939 - 00:59:11.939

what you have to buy, but later on I learned from from experiences like that uh to think a little bit through a a project before you make a decision. So the 3rd, my 3rd area was really work with my dad. Um, Clearly you, you've had a

00:59:11.939 - 00:59:26.290

career of distinguished leadership. What what are some of your early memories of being a leader or what early experiences, um, and gave you the confidence that you could be a leader? You know, I, I really never thought about it that way, um. I think like most

00:59:26.290 - 00:59:47.780

youngsters my ambition was to be president of the United States and I really didn't get rid of that ambition until very, very recently, maybe not yet uh but aside from, from unachievable, unattainable goals. I always wanted to To um Work with people who who um didn't

00:59:47.780 - 01:00:02.590

have as many of the benefits as I did because I know I know growing up I had. I really had the best of everything and we were not a wealthy family at all and we lost our house in the depression, 6029 Waner Street. We had to

01:00:02.590 - 01:00:24.439

move to 905 Pine Street, um, which one of the surgeons at Jefferson, who was a client of my father's in the grocery store gave us for a very nominal rent, um, and then I remember becoming uh in first grade, um, at the Randall school. On Lombard

01:00:24.439 - 01:00:41.110

Street becoming like the leader of the of the one of the gangs, uh, I was all of 6 years old, 7 years old possibly and uh my, my father was very concerned about that. And I didn't do anything wrong. It was just that in recess, you

01:00:41.110 - 01:00:56.270

know, the gangs would, would be pitted against each other. I mean they were not gangs with violent gangs, but they were, you know, groups of kids and somehow he, he, he got $1000. To move out to Yeyden And we moved there when I was 7 years

01:00:56.270 - 01:01:09.199

old and I, and I just skipped me a grade. Um, I say all that because I really never looked, uh, I never looked the future in terms of leadership. I, I really didn't know what I, I wanted to be a ball player. I wanted to be

01:01:09.199 - 01:01:25.520

a big league baseball player and, and, um, I wasn't, you know, I just didn't have it to make it and that was a great disappointment in my life and so I did not adjust what I wanted to do until much later. I was always pretty good

01:01:25.520 - 01:01:43.149

at helping other people who were doing good things, leaders. I was much better behind the scenes and I never thought of myself as being in the front line, so I, I'm not, I'm not one who um prepared myself with the expectation of leading someday other than

01:01:43.520 - 01:01:58.580

these mythical dreams of being president of the United States. You mentioned um moving to Yan Y E A D O N Y and um that is that where you went to high school? Yeah, what we all four of our of us in the family went to

01:01:58.580 - 01:02:23.189

Yeon High School and it it um. It closed in about 19. 85 and became part of uh Pennwood High School, which is Yeon, Darby, and Lansdowne. Lansdowne and Darby were our number one rivals and so they merged into one high school, a more consolidated school, but

01:02:23.189 - 01:02:44.620

Yeyden was our high school. We were there uh Any teachers that stuck out in your mind for me, yeah, the one probably who who um. Who stands out the most was Julia Finney, our Latin teacher. She stands out for several reasons, um. She was not my

01:02:44.620 - 01:03:02.929

favorite teacher at all and she was a good teacher. And she, um, it was my great experience with cheating. Um, when I think it was about the 9th grade or 10 9th grade I was in Latin class. I was, I was very much taken with the

01:03:02.929 - 01:03:18.550

girl next to me, Claire Carpenter, and she was very good, and I was always, always sort of just looking at her and not doing work very well. I never, never was, I was never conscientious as a student. I would tell my mother that that. It couldn't

01:03:18.550 - 01:03:31.510

bring any books home anymore because the upper class had already ripped pages out and of course I could get by with anything I wanted. I was, I, I would, I could always pass the classes. In fact, one teacher had me grade everybody's paper and I never

01:03:31.510 - 01:03:50.340

gave myself more than a B. I was very proud of that fact, but Miss Finney, I went to Leary's bookstore. Leary's bookstore was, was, was really a precious, unique. Uh, store with of of just books down where Gimbels is located was located at Ethan. 8th and

01:03:50.340 - 01:04:11.879

9th and and and um and Chesnut and. Up on there were ladders that you had to climb to get certain books. I went there to get. The translation Of the Virgil piece that we were doing in class and I came back and finally I volunteered. And

01:04:11.879 - 01:04:30.330

I volunteered and, and translated it and to my surprise, I had the wrong edition. So it taught me a good lesson, um, that you better do your own work and, and I was humiliated by it. But Miss Finney, that was in 9th grade. Miss Finney was,

01:04:30.399 - 01:04:43.060

uh, we got along very well. She thought, she thought that Ed Wolf and I in our class would be the most likely not to succeed and, and basically gave us an award at, at, at the seniors. I thought that was pretty cool. Eddie Wolf became a

01:04:43.060 - 01:05:06.760

very well known lawyer, trial lawyer. And the irony of this is that Miss Finney. Married eventually our biology teacher, Mr. McCollum, Frank McCollum. And when I chaired the um the the the commission on the bar examination procedures leading to the report in 19 December of 1970

01:05:08.209 - 01:05:27.540

that the procedures in the bar examination in Pennsylvania discriminated against blacks. When all that notoriety, who do you think came to see me? Because she was failing the bar exam and felt as though she had been discriminating. She was a white Irish person, Miss Finney, we

01:05:27.540 - 01:05:43.010

became the closest friends. I represented her, um, and I was, I was not the dean of the law school, I was a professor. Uh, but it was, it was a very important point in my life of realizing that what goes around sometimes comes around and instead

01:05:43.010 - 01:05:58.040

of being, um, you know, being nasty to her, I was quite the opposite. I was quite flattered that she came in and I wanted her to know that, um, she had problems with, with standardized tests. It was, it's a normal thing. It's not a cultural thing

01:05:58.040 - 01:06:13.979

as much as it is a personality, um, but that stood out, uh, not only because of what happened in Ye. I remember in 6th grade Mr. Stewart, um, would have us maybe 5th grade would have us uh do multiplication tables during lunch to see who could

01:06:13.979 - 01:06:29.659

do them the the quickest, and he would challenge anybody. I always beat him. And he never liked that. I found that you should not, you should not show up your boss too much because it comes back to haunt you. I, I, I was able to pick

01:06:29.659 - 01:06:51.860

up little things like that, but the most important experiences from, from the Ayden were the two, major three major incidents that got me going into, into, uh, human rights, um, and they were. If you want, I, I will continue. Uh, the first had to do when

01:06:51.860 - 01:07:05.820

with my sister, my youngest Aliki and I came back from, we used to go to the seashore all summer, came back from the shore dark as we would be and at Bell Avenue School. And uh we were told to go to the William B. Evans school.

01:07:05.899 - 01:07:18.870

Well that's the place for colored children. Now we had already been at at at at uh we we already been here 3 or 4 years. Um, she was, I think, in 4th grade and I was in 3rd. And that made and I asked why and and

01:07:18.879 - 01:07:33.919

and why and it's it's struck me that not that there were some people who couldn't go to to the public school, the Bell Avenue School, which always I processed and kept in my head and I thought that was unfair. We ended up at Bell Avenue because

01:07:33.919 - 01:08:03.209

they identified who we were. Uh, secondly, right in the middle of the Second World War, uh, Jack Allen and his Jack Allen's father, um. Organized a what would we would call a. A a march on. A grocer named Samuel Milman um. Milman's uh Milman's father, my

01:08:03.209 - 01:08:19.919

classmate. Who is Jewish? Um, and who had disciplined Jack Allen in the grocery store. Now I remember my father at a grocery store, so I had a very, very close identification with this. And I'll never forget it was marching. It was like a KKK march through

01:08:19.919 - 01:08:31.319

Y Aden about a mile away to the store, and I, you know, I was along with everybody else and I and I didn't realize what they were doing. I thought we were going to have a party. We got the Milman's and they started to use anti-Semitic

01:08:31.319 - 01:08:44.979

things. I went over to the Millman side. I challenged him. I mean, I was not a guy who looked for trouble. But I thought it was so unfair because I know Jack had done wrong and and that stuck in my mind and now it turns out

01:08:44.979 - 01:09:01.628

that Milman's grandson. Uh, graduated from Temple about 10 years ago and his father, his grandfather and father were there and they must have told the story to the kid. The third one was our senior class trip to Washington when the the bus stopped outside of Washington

01:09:01.628 - 01:09:19.048

about 20 miles and, and Mrs. Davis and Mr. Sewell. And the Davises, the Sewells, and the other black kids and they had to get up and leave, and we asked why they weren't permitted to stay in the hotels in Washington, um, at that 0.1948 so those

01:09:19.048 - 01:09:37.729

three incidents uh combined to um. Uh, to that's what I remember most from Yate in high school, not the teachers as much, uh, although I mentioned a couple, but the incidents which helped shape later on my own values. Sure, well, I'd like to briefly go through,

01:09:37.819 - 01:09:51.168

um, you know, your undergraduate experience before how you ended up at Penn Law. I see you've already, you already seem to have an interest in human rights and the law. Can you talk a little bit about your college experiences? Well, I started at Drexel. I didn't

01:09:51.168 - 01:10:03.369

want to go to college. My, my parents and my sisters just forced me. I didn't even want to apply. I wanted to, I just wanted to go out and have a good time, so I ended up at Drexel because my second sister Vilma went to Drexel,

01:10:03.409 - 01:10:14.509

and she was, you know, she was this, this, my sisters were all straight A students all the way through, so I was always reacting to that. You know, I can't make that, so I, I might as well just be mediocre. I went there and I did

01:10:14.509 - 01:10:31.669

OK. I even, I played some basketball. I was a basketball manager, um, and then I wanted to get away from home. I'd never been away. I was very sheltered and my uncle, uh, who's a Penn Law grad, uh, Judge Leakis, uh, became a judge, went to

01:10:31.669 - 01:10:44.790

William and Mary, and so did my cousin who's a Penn Law grad, go to William and Mary. So I said I'm gonna go to William and Mary and I transferred there. And I had the greatest time in my whole life for one year and I, I

01:10:44.790 - 01:10:58.560

discovered Purple Passion and everything else there is to discover now I didn't go to class too often and I ended up with something less than a C average and there was a rule which I didn't know about that you had to maintain a C average if

01:10:58.560 - 01:11:15.930

you were a transfer student and, and so I got booted. Now I, I ironically I was booted. The number the guy who was top in the class was a fellow named David Rittenhouse, you know, Rittenhouse Laboratories over David Rittenhouse. And I, you know, I got thrown

01:11:15.930 - 01:11:29.810

out. We both ended up at Penn Law School and I was up here and he got thrown out. I could again another illustration of be careful what goes around comes around. But anyway, and William and Mary, I had just all I remember about William and Mary

01:11:29.810 - 01:11:50.330

was having a nonstop party life. So humiliated, I returned to, uh, Philadelphia and Drexel took me back and at at that point at Drexel I really, um, yeah, I really blossomed academically. I was afraid I had a wonderful teacher, an English teacher named um Edwin McDonald,

01:11:50.629 - 01:12:08.930

and for all of these outstanding persons there is a there is a, a brick with their name. In uh what's now the Leo Cora Center, what was the Apollo, uh, I, I have about 30 bricks for teachers and others who were great influences on me, and

01:12:08.930 - 01:12:25.200

he was an English teacher. Um, who was a very, very down to earth man who somehow took a liking to me and helped steer me in the right way. The other thing about Drexel was I had one more incident. I had pledged a fraternity at at

01:12:25.200 - 01:12:42.259

William and Mary. Uh, lambda Chi Alpha, and when I came to Drexel, they said, well, you can be lambda Chi Alpha, and I found that that it wouldn't permit any Jews in there. And so I got up at a meeting and told him I wouldn't join

01:12:42.259 - 01:12:58.220

this and why I wouldn't join it. I was, I was, I was really ostracized and I was so angry that I said I'll play you all in table tennis. I and I just passed the house coming here at 30 34th and and um um Paelton that

01:12:58.220 - 01:13:15.220

Lambda Chi Alpha house. I remember taking on the entire fraternity that night and table. I was a pretty good table tennis player, tournament player, um. And somehow I was trying to get my fury out with them and and so again I learned early on that. You

01:13:15.220 - 01:13:30.509

don't have to go along and be popular if you want to do the right thing, you're gonna be unpopular in the short term anyway. And those were very important lessons and I got that lesson from a combination of the Millman incident and the and the uh

01:13:30.509 - 01:13:50.549

the Drexel incident. Beyond that at Drexel, um. The um I'd say that the great influence was, was, was Mr. uh Mr. McDonald and also Harold Budd, B U D D Harold Budd graduate of this place as well, uh, taught business law and, and I, I start

01:13:50.549 - 01:14:12.049

in getting interested in in law in that course, um. And, and he was another very supportive person. So then I finished Drexel and and excuse me, Mr. McDonald was very instrumental in. And explaining away my William and Mary record saying, you know, he was young and

01:14:12.049 - 01:14:27.330

foolish and, and I did well and it was an early part of the LSATs. I, I think I did pretty well on that and came here and, and was scared to death. I thought for sure I would not be able to pass a single course I

01:14:27.330 - 01:14:43.200

was very concerned about and I, I worked hard and I did, did well my first year. And I got on to law review. And then I stopped going to classes. I almost got thrown out of Penn Law School. They almost blocked my graduation, but they didn't,

01:14:43.339 - 01:14:56.470

but I knew the rules. I'd learned that from William and Mary, and they could not deviate from the rules. Later on I became dean. I made sure everybody knew the rules who whether you had to go to class, what the sanctions were, everything was laid out,

01:14:56.879 - 01:15:19.459

so, um. At Penn Law School. Um, the great, I, I thought that it was a wonderful, um, experience that first year in particular, the, the teachers were, were, well, they were some they were somewhat parsimonious, um, you know, dealing too much with syn with syntax and

01:15:19.459 - 01:15:41.359

semantics and not enough pragmatics, um, I thought they were terrific, uh, Paul Mishkin, who we later. And who befriended and spent time with over the years, young, very young teacher. Leo Lemon was my favorite and remains a friend to this day, um. And W. Foster Reeves

01:15:41.359 - 01:16:04.580

the 3rd who would begin class by taking his big right hand paw and slamming it. I can't because slamming it on the wooden, the oak, uh, bench saying quiet please, gentlemen, as loud as and it would frighten everybody. Experience in his class was another. Um, human

01:16:04.580 - 01:16:22.560

rights, um. In in the sense, uh, stop stopover, he referred to the women as mister, and he drove two of them out of by by by Thanksgiving, but Dolores Corpsman who sat next to me and was and the 1st 1st person I appointed to the faculty

01:16:22.560 - 01:16:39.450

when I became dean, uh Dolores was too tough for that and Gila Woodward, uh, also was too tough for that. They were two of my closest friends in, in, uh, in law school. And I thought it was really demeaning that um. That he would not refer

01:16:39.450 - 01:16:54.810

to them as as Ms Ms in those days. He was also on the admissions committee. He had been chairman, but Levin had Leo Levin had had replaced him, but he was still on the admissions committee, so I could see in my own mind when I heard

01:16:54.810 - 01:17:12.649

about quotas, uh, over a period of time that people like like Foster Reeve were, um, the ones who were doing this now he was pleasant. He was, uh, I had my uncles and. As well as my cousins notes from Foster Reeves course and contracts when when

01:17:12.649 - 01:17:27.250

they took them 20 years and 15 years before and he hadn't didn't deviate much and he would not refer to the commercial code under the other than to say it's a cursed he wouldn't teach it, um, so that was a a a negative experience, but I

01:17:27.250 - 01:17:45.609

got a lot of positive out of it. I saw how a person like that operates. But the uh John Honnold was in in uh in in uh constitutional law was was was quite inspirational. Clark Bis. Who I later um came across at Harvard Law School. He

01:17:45.609 - 01:18:00.689

went to Harvard teaching and I went looked him up there and we we clashed all the time at at Penn because at one time in class we were talking about the uh the importance of having a hearing for uh for um, uh, to take away a,

01:18:00.759 - 01:18:17.669

a privilege like a like a lawyer's uh ability to practice. Licensed to practice and we talked about bartenders and I was a bartender at among other things and it got to the point where I was forcing him to tell me what he thought how long it

01:18:17.669 - 01:18:30.640

would take to become a bartender, what you have to pass in the way I'm talking about real life passing and it finally reached the point I said, well, Mr. B, you're really thinking of a beer slinger. There's some people who could spend the rest of their

01:18:30.640 - 01:18:47.000

lives and would never qualify as a bartender, and he was so furious with me. And and I was thrown out of 3 classes. That was one of them. So I have, but I took all those as I never spoke in class unless I was called on,

01:18:47.339 - 01:19:02.419

um, and unless I was provoked by somebody getting beaten up by somebody trying to show how much smarter the person was, but looking at all that I thought that the edu the teachers at at Penn Law School were very really outstanding. They really were, they, they

01:19:02.419 - 01:19:20.129

would, they would, um. They may have been a little narrow in in what I say in terms of putting a context in there compared to Yale later on. Um, but they certainly stood up to the Harvard Law professors and the students at Penn. May not have

01:19:20.129 - 01:19:35.990

been consistently as good as the students at Harvard. But the good ones were just as good and most of them were good. And I thought the experience at Penn Law School was really wonderful, but the person that was the most influential though. Uh, was the Dean

01:19:36.359 - 01:19:51.259

Jefferson B. Fordham, who, um, I still consider to be one of my heroes, and after I really messed around and didn't, I almost didn't make it through the law school at the end, um, a year later I had a very bad personal experience. I wouldn't stood

01:19:51.259 - 01:20:07.680

up at the altar uh by by the two families were very close in Greece as well as here. And the children were about ready to get married and she changed her mind at the last second with 2000 people in the church and, and I was devastated

01:20:07.680 - 01:20:23.120

another devastation, so, uh, we decided that I would, I would, I would go into what I wanted to was starting to get interested in, in the international field and I have a brother-in-law who was at the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy had been there and

01:20:23.359 - 01:20:40.970

um we decided like in August 20th to apply there and I had a. And I asked, I came down to see Dean Fordham, and he was incredibly supportive. He was unbelievably understanding. I, and he, he, um, wrote a very strong letter and stayed in touch with

01:20:40.970 - 01:20:56.169

me all the way through and again, you know, you don't forget things like that and it wasn't as though it were the first encounter with him. I've been, I've been with him before and um that made the, you know, it put a rose color on the

01:20:56.169 - 01:21:13.229

entire experience of Penn. Did it influence the way that uh you acted as a dean and later as a president? It certainly it had a very important influence on me. I've always been known as very student oriented. Um, in the sense that the students really are

01:21:13.229 - 01:21:29.580

the major reason why, why we have these institutions, we sometimes forget it. We, we tend to think that as, as, as, as researchers as scholars as community servants, um, we're the reason because we're here all the time and students come and go, um, but Dean Fordham,

01:21:29.750 - 01:21:49.700

uh, with his emphasis on students and on civil rights, um, was a model. That and I never quite am was able not certainly never achieved his his his uh his achievements, his attainments, but it was someone I looked to and um his values were very similar

01:21:49.700 - 01:22:08.770

to mine and he gave me courage to be able to uh go from being the staff person to someone or just joining in the march on the other side as as I mentioned in the Millman case um and eventually. At taking responsibility myself for the leadership

01:22:08.770 - 01:22:27.479

and he was a. It is, it's a small world because when I was dean of the law school. Who do you think was the dean of the medical school of the University of North Carolina, Chris Fordham, the nephew of Jefferson Fordham, very similar in his not

01:22:27.479 - 01:22:45.080

only his demeanor but in his values. He was a very progressive medical school dean for that time at the University of North Carolina and a and a, excuse me, at AM. Um, a civil rights leader. So, um, sometimes the apple doesn't fall far from the tree,

01:22:45.140 - 01:23:01.410

even in the family as well as the experience of a student with a teacher and a mentor. I noticed that you were the president of your uh of the Lewis Law Club. Oh, that was, you know, now that's another woman. Mel Rubin, uh, was the secretary

01:23:01.850 - 01:23:16.939

and the reason we became president and secretary, I'd forgotten about this was because we were not at the meeting. No one wanted to be president and, or no one wanted to have, have to be an officer. And so we were elected uh in absentia. And then

01:23:16.939 - 01:23:31.770

what we did, we said, well, let's, let's do something and so we had wonderful parties on the Schukle River in the, in the, um, um, in the, uh, house houses for, uh, the crews, um, what do you call those, um, up and down the skukle, the,

01:23:31.779 - 01:23:44.520

the boat, the boat roboat house one of those, I think we used to use it either Vesper or I, I don't know which one we use, but. Uh, we became a very popular group within the law school and we also had the best sports program and

01:23:44.520 - 01:24:01.549

I wanted us to win the championship, the basketball championship, so we went after Hardy Williams. Hardy Williams was a class behind us. He was a big time, uh, 3rd team All-American at Penn State. Uh, black guy And Hardy, who became a state senator and sort of

01:24:01.549 - 01:24:18.830

the one of the fathers of, of the, uh, of the African American political establishment in this state, could have been national if he had done certain things differently, but anyway, Hardy, uh, I saw Hardy and So why don't you join the club? And so we had

01:24:18.830 - 01:24:39.299

this, this, uh, this, uh, membership meeting. Now, it took two black balls. They're little black they're just to block someone. So Ruben and I worked it out. I said, look, nobody's gonna admit that they voted negative on him, all right. So let's just go through and,

01:24:39.500 - 01:24:57.220

and get him in. So we, we have the vote and there I don't know how many black balls or 4 or 5 black balls, not many, that they're out of about 30. So I said, uh, Mr. Secretary, Um, what is the count? He said, there are

01:24:57.220 - 01:25:12.169

no black balls. I said, there being none, he's in. Nobody challenged it. We went to the championship game. And we missed the lay up to lose the game. But anyway, I always kid Hardy Williams, we became, we were friends all the way through and his son

01:25:12.169 - 01:25:29.000

is now has his state senatorial seat, um, but Hardy and I sat next to each other, Hardy Williams and I, the day that Robertson, who argued for Virginia in the Brown against Board of Education, came to Penn Law School. Um, I was a 2nd year student.

01:25:29.089 - 01:25:51.520

He was a 1st year student. To discuss the Brown case. And um remember uh listening to his argument. And I raised the question whether blue eyes or brown hair uh would be a basis, a legitimate basis to uh to keep persons out of particular schools. I

01:25:51.520 - 01:26:08.589

remember I remembered about that incident of mine, uh, with my sister. And, and I wouldn't let him off the hook and I kept pounding at him they finally asked me to, you know, to calm down but Hardy was there and we became very close friends and

01:26:08.589 - 01:26:29.120

worked in the civil rights movement together, uh, that particular experience that night. Um, probably had an effect on our long term relationship, but it also made me understand that uh as a lawyer you can. You have to, you have to. Have do the best you can

01:26:29.120 - 01:26:47.479

for your client. But there's certain lines drawn between what your views are and the client's views, and I thought Robertson had simply accepted as distinguished a lawyer as he was this segregation on the basis of race as an appropriate uh distinction, and so I lost respect

01:26:47.479 - 01:27:01.890

for the man. It was a wonderful, wonderful, I remember that was a wonderful, uh, evening of of give and take, but that was my reaction again. Penn Law School gave us the opportunity to think about these things and to debate them. What did you do during

01:27:01.890 - 01:27:23.790

the summers in law school and the first summer, um, I worked um with um. With a group that was seeking to reduce the the inheritance tax. For, um, or trying to work out the charities wouldn't pay any tax on, on, on the, the, the, the, uh,

01:27:23.799 - 01:27:42.270

re whatever they received and we're trying to reduce the estate tax for uh everybody else from. Some gigantic number to 15% unless you were relative 2%. And we succeeded. Well, I happened to work with, I guess it was a Republican group that was trying to get

01:27:42.270 - 01:28:07.479

this thing done in in Montgomery County in Chester County, and what I went out and saw the will, by the way, that while I was there. Of um Of One of the more famous um um financial tycoons. Um In um Philadelphia history who had left in

01:28:07.479 - 01:28:25.830

a handwritten will all of his estate to his beloved wife and he hated her and what he did was to spend so much and to create so many obligations that she ended up with nothing because of tax liability and again it taught me a lesson about

01:28:26.180 - 01:28:43.660

um what appears to be. Um, something may not be that when you get behind and look at the entire context, um, I, I don't know why I've drawn a blank as to who that was, but it was a very, very famous case. It was a holographic

01:28:43.660 - 01:29:00.839

will 2, 2nd year. Uh, from the 2nd year on, I resigned from the law review. I was the first person ever to do that. I wrote, but I resigned because I wanted to spend my time in a more practical setting in the criminal law. So I

01:29:00.839 - 01:29:22.009

became the first student volunteer at what was then called the Defender Association of Philadelphia. There were 5 lawyers. Uh, Mr. Pollock, Mr. Pollock was Herman Pollock was the chief defender. At the Dick Sprague, who we, we've been friends ever since. Dick Sprague was one of the

01:29:22.009 - 01:29:44.149

41 of the 5. Um, Eddie DePaul, great trial lawyer. Bob Gabriel And uh Jack Hassett. And Ben and Ben Reed was, um, was the 5th 1 who came in from one of the big law firms. He then became a counselor to the State Department. There were

01:29:44.149 - 01:30:01.990

lawyers from the big firms coming through there for a couple of months volunteering. And then I was like the, I was everything, the investigator. I just spent all my time. That's why I didn't go to classes and, and I developed some cases of my own through,

01:30:02.100 - 01:30:17.470

you know, without, we didn't have clinical education in those days, but I did everything but, but, um, speak up in court. And that I'll never forget that was an incredible experience and later when I became dean we were the first, I think, in the country to

01:30:17.470 - 01:30:34.410

begin clinical education. It was that experience that I had. I was trying to replicate for students with, with qualitative standards of, of, um, consistency, you know, what happens with clinical studies you get really good experiences and terrible experiences depending on how much time. Uh, the, the,

01:30:34.419 - 01:30:53.430

uh, supervisor gives to you and also how much time you can spend on what kind of, what kind of cases or matters you're, you're involved in. So. And that was a, that was what I did the second year, uh the uh that's what I did, I,

01:30:53.709 - 01:31:07.899

that's what I did the, the, the, uh, um, at the end of the of that 2nd year when I. I'm getting confused. The 2nd year is when I did the tax thing, but I had time at the end of that summer to, to go to the

01:31:07.899 - 01:31:22.879

defender, and then I stayed with the defender all the way through till I graduated and, and after that I became a defender, uh, that first year. I didn't take the bar exam right away because my father, um, I had to work at my father's and my

01:31:22.879 - 01:31:37.979

father was, was ill and I had to sort of take over the business for a while and so I took the bar exam in January and all that time when I wasn't at the at the at at the business I was working as a defender. And

01:31:37.979 - 01:31:54.459

then I went to the Fletcher School after being held up, you know, stood up in, in, uh, in that September of the year after I, the year after I finished law school and came back for one stint before I, um, I went on to, uh, Duke

01:31:55.140 - 01:32:11.040

uh to work there so. My summers were the first summer I guess I was down at the shore with with the uh with the Mills brothers. I remember that part having a good time then I, I made Lavie so I had to come back to work

01:32:11.040 - 01:32:28.069

here and then the second year I did the tax and the defender and I stayed with the Defender all the way through was a wonderful experience for me and it made me grow up a lot and um. Later on in his life, um. Eddie DePaul, who

01:32:28.069 - 01:32:46.500

had, who was one of the great young lawyers probably to come out in Philadelphia trial lawyers, he get, it's hard to imagine this he won 29 straight jury verdicts, 29 consecutive jury verdicts, uh, over a period of, of 6 months, not less than that, 3 months,

01:32:46.790 - 01:33:04.529

29 in a row, not one, not guilty, but 29 in a row. He was, but he, he lost a kidney. And he had to have it and in those days they didn't have transplants and he spent. And this this this virile person, Edmund E. DePaul. Uh

01:33:04.529 - 01:33:23.930

became And never would admit it, but became very dependent on. Others to get him through uh his his his daily routines for his illnesses towards the end of his life he was he he he went to the um solicitor's office in Philadelphia and he was an

01:33:23.930 - 01:33:39.069

expert in a certain area. First he was in the US attorney's office and solicitor following defender days. He was canned by one of the uh mayors who came in to clean house but basically to put his own buddies in the same jobs. And I brought him

01:33:39.069 - 01:33:59.290

to temple. And he worked at Temple as as with me and with the um uh with council of he worked in two or three areas of special areas for for a legal counsel until he died. Um, again, uh, what he taught me, and he was a

01:33:59.290 - 01:34:16.049

very tough taskmaster, he didn't say a good word to me, probably his whole life, even even till he died, uh, I, I knew his, his real feelings, but he was a meticulous and, and very expansive, uh, lawyer. He had not only a, you know, a quadrangle,

01:34:16.089 - 01:34:32.899

you see, you have a all law schools have quadrangle legal education is systems oriented. It's narrow, you can keep everything else away, whereas most of life is contextual. Well, he was a contextualist as well as the ability to. To be very narrow in his focus and

01:34:32.899 - 01:34:47.290

that was a very good lesson was later at Yale with McDougall and Laswell, uh, gave me the courage to try to pursue in my own way. Before we move on to your your postpan experience, I just wanted to get uh a few other questions answered. Um,

01:34:48.060 - 01:35:07.620

what your review experience, what impact, um, do you think that had on your career? I, I think it was very important because um. I remember writing on On patents on um a tax issue relating to infringement versus um. Um I don't even remember the distinction now

01:35:07.620 - 01:35:31.990

capitalization, whatever it was, um, the, the. The process of of working through. Um, a piece of serious legal writing. was something that I've carried with me, um, very in a very positive way all the way through. I think being on the law review impressed a lot

01:35:31.990 - 01:35:51.479

of persons. I mean, I told them I resigned. I didn't care. I published a couple of things, um. I, Bob Kendall, Robert Kendall, who was a terrific lawyer with Snyder, the Schneider firm, who is retired now, uh, was the managing editor ahead of us. Um, and

01:35:51.750 - 01:36:08.330

he, uh, and I have been very close in the last 40 years. I appointed him a couple of times to do antitrust as a lecturer at the law school when I was dean, um. I don't think Bob, I think Bob had his own, his own, um.

01:36:09.830 - 01:36:28.810

Set of criteria for how the associate should um you know what he should associate should be doing on each at each point of the of the two months that the article was being in the process of being completed and I I sort of did it my

01:36:28.810 - 01:36:46.419

own way and that never bothered him later on in in uh. And maintaining mutual respect for one another, but my resignation in the law review was, was like a big story in the law school at the time. Nobody ever done that before. I wasn't angry. I

01:36:46.419 - 01:37:06.660

just, I just didn't wanna fulfill. I couldn't fulfill any more responsibilities when I was gonna work 40 to 50, 60 hours a week down there. How was your way different than Bob Kendall's way, um. Well, He, I'd say his way was, was to have um a

01:37:06.660 - 01:37:23.189

precise date for each item to be turned in. And I know that with guiding my uh right now I have 12 students from abroad who are lawyers uh getting a master's um from China and India, and I give them what I think when they should have

01:37:23.189 - 01:37:39.629

their first Prey and then a a one pager and then uh the preliminary outline and give them dates all the way through, but I'm willing to until the very end, not the last date I'm willing to have uh those as guidelines, not as, as, as, uh,

01:37:39.870 - 01:37:55.479

deadlines. And I think that Bob had to do it the way he did it, um, when you have 3040 people who are you're trying to work with but the same as a coach. I mean, you have, do you have some coaches will say look, you have

01:37:55.479 - 01:38:15.669

to be in the house at 9 o'clock or 10 o'clock. Others say, well, I'll give an exception to this person for this reason. um, I've always been willing to do the latter. So long as the fundamental um um product and deadline are met. And Again, and

01:38:15.669 - 01:38:32.529

when as a younger person, I, I took a little offense to that, to the procedures that were being used, um, and. Again Probably for all the wrong reasons. I just, you know, I just want, I just like to do things my own way. Well, how did

01:38:32.529 - 01:38:45.830

you end up with the topic of patents and tax? It doesn't seem I don't even know. I mean, we had to pick areas that, that, uh. cases that come out and they have this. See whether anybody had written about them. I know I did a one

01:38:45.830 - 01:39:03.979

on National Labor Relations Board, which was a good one, the Talladega case. I remember that now, and I, I had another one I was doing which I thought I think that was one of the disputes I had early on, um. That I thought had been precluded

01:39:03.979 - 01:39:20.140

from, from being uh rewritten because all the points I would have made have been made already. Um, that's the way you did it. You, you, I don't know how you do it now, but they would look at it, take a case, and, um, review it, see

01:39:20.140 - 01:39:36.109

whether or not it made broke new ground. If so, has anybody else already published in the area and if not, um, go ahead if you thought it was important enough. But I, I think that those that the experience of those, I think I did 3 of

01:39:36.109 - 01:39:55.549

them, uh 2 of them eventually. We published the third one, as I say, was I thought was precluded from published being published. Uh, I still may have the text someplace. Um, I thought that experience was, was, was really, um, enormously useful to me. It helped my,

01:39:55.790 - 01:40:13.149

helped my ability to get to the point in law much more so than anything else I did including class work. Sure. I guess now I'll get, get on to what you did after you graduated and um I want maybe talk about what opportunities were available to

01:40:13.149 - 01:40:27.470

you after graduation you said you had some problems, yeah, see, I, I, you know, I have a very strange thing when I went from, from Penn to to after a year with the defender, I went to the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy, and that really

01:40:27.470 - 01:40:47.819

helped open me to a lot of the rest of the world. Remember at that point in my life I'd never been abroad. I never went abroad until I was 36. I was already not only past Penn and Fletcher and beyond. Um, Uh my years at Duke.

01:40:49.890 - 01:41:10.370

But I'd already Um, uh, and, and, and also at Harvard. But I had all I was already beyond so so Fletcher, Duke, Harvard. And then to join Temple's law faculty in 1963. It was until 1967. It was that, that long into the future before when I

01:41:10.370 - 01:41:26.970

was 36 that I ever went abroad. And And it was um. I had, uh, well, I had a, a vague interest in the international, I was usually more drawn to the what I consider the local, the civil rights and all that movement. I can explain how

01:41:26.970 - 01:41:47.930

I moved over, uh, and then moved back again at in my and then moved moved from local to international back to local back to international 4 times in my career, um. And Um, when I went from, from, uh, Penn, I explained what I was doing then

01:41:47.930 - 01:42:06.830

because of the personal reason I went to the Fletcher School and there I was, I had wonderful teachers Leo Gross, um, who was, uh, a refugee from a Jewish refugee from Austria, um, there were he was the main influence international law person. Uh, just a, a

01:42:06.830 - 01:42:29.879

beautiful person. It, it was a nephew of uh of um. Uh, of, of Hans Kelsen, the, the great jurisprude, um, and. Um, from there I went over to Harvard. Law school And there I had 3 or 4 terrific teachers. Louis Sohn, Louis B. Sohn, a similar

01:42:29.879 - 01:42:51.529

immigrant, this one from, from Poland. Um, I became his assistant, as a matter of fact, uh, and after during, during the year, he was, he was the most pedantic. P Parser that you'll ever find but unbelievably um um inspirational person as quiet as as he was,

01:42:51.540 - 01:43:07.970

he, he could inspire in his students a very strong craft skill and my Penn law review work was very helpful to me and knowing I could fulfill any any requirement that he that he gave me but anyway from there, um, while I was at at Harvard.

01:43:08.470 - 01:43:27.229

The general counsel of Aramco, George Ray RAY came through. And for some reason he wanted to see me. I guess one of the dean told him about me. I don't know, I was sort of quiet. And, and he wanted me to join the he was general

01:43:27.229 - 01:43:45.870

counsel of the American Arabian Oil Company Aramco. He wanted to send me to London for 3 or 4 years to learn Arabic and to go over, uh, with him in Saudi Arabia basically to, you know, eventually pass the mantle. Uh, I thought that was a, I

01:43:45.870 - 01:44:00.870

wasn't so I don't know why he would see that in me. And I thought about that. I'd probably be dead now if I had done that, but he was, he was a terrific lawyer and later when I became dean at, at Temple, I brought him in

01:44:01.270 - 01:44:23.040

several times to uh meet students, you know, in informal ways. Anyway, I start, I start thinking about international a little bit more because I'd done all this work at Fletcher and, and at, and at Harvard. And so. Um, I didn't. Instead, um, I got married and

01:44:23.040 - 01:44:36.379

my wife said she wanted me to be in the academic area, which I thought was the dumbest advice, but I wasn't gonna fight with her, uh, because I didn't think that that was anything that was my cup of tea. I'm not, I never, never felt like

01:44:36.660 - 01:44:57.140

the teachers were really, they were great, they're analytically strong, etc. but not much about understanding life with exceptions. Now there's there exceptions. But anyway, I went down to Duke with Arthur Larson. He came to see me. He had just, this was 1950. Um 9. He had

01:44:57.140 - 01:45:20.589

written, the Republican looks for his Republican looks at his party. He was to be the, the vice presidential nominee in in '56. If Eisenhower dumped Nixon. And so then when that didn't happen, he was being groomed for president. And Lyndon Johnson, who was the majority leader,

01:45:20.750 - 01:45:32.720

went after him badly in the Senate, and they start beating him up because they're worried that he would be a very good candidate. He looked a lot like Gregory Peck. Anyway, he came up and he said, here's what I'm gonna do. I'm going to work with

01:45:32.720 - 01:45:49.390

them. I'm going to deal with, with the, with the rule of law, the world rule of law. Now this was the, the, this was the approach taken by uh Louis Sohn. And Grenville Clark in their book World Peace Through World Law and Sohn is the guy

01:45:49.390 - 01:46:07.830

I was working with at Harvard. It was, it was a positiveist view and looking at it from the standpoint of a from a jurisprudentially. It was uh uh the, the view that if you could get agreement on law. The politics would follow, um, you know, you've

01:46:07.830 - 01:46:28.250

heard it's, it's hard to to legislate morality. Well, in jurisprudential terms, um, they were ignoring historicism, which means, uh, that you know law comes out of the people out of their culture, and it takes time to develop. They were ignoring, um, uh, realpolitik. Um, they were

01:46:28.250 - 01:46:47.399

ignoring law as part of society, but basically saying it was sort of like a restatement approach, uh, which was well known at Harvard, uh, versus the legal realist approach well known from Columbia and Yale, and I went there with him and spent 4 years except for

01:46:47.609 - 01:47:02.740

for 6 months when I came up with with uh Richardson Dilworth who ran for governor and I came up to work with him during that period of time, um. But the back for a moment, when I was at Harvard Law School, I was really impressed with

01:47:02.740 - 01:47:17.290

one thing in this Ross in this big room, Roscoe Pound room. I think it was from 2 to 4 that world peace. I forgot what it was called. It was we called a World Peace through world law with Louis Sohn met. I was a student in

01:47:17.290 - 01:47:36.520

that class. But at 4 o'clock and leech, not noise leach, but leech, the future uh perpetuities in a nutshell leech. And Henry Kissinger, Kissinger taught a course called strategic something in International order. We called the World Peace through World War. And I would sit in that

01:47:36.520 - 01:47:55.609

class and somehow I was able to sit in several times. I, I couldn't believe they were talking about the same subject. And again that was very important in getting me to think. Uh, about more than. The narrow focus on whatever it is, law or finance or

01:47:55.970 - 01:48:13.810

and to try to expand it to consider how others would approach the subject. But again, after Harvard, um. After Penn and I mentioned that and Fletcher and Harvard, then I ended up at Duke, so it ended up there and that was a wonderful experience. I was,

01:48:13.850 - 01:48:32.330

I was really the ghostwriter, uh, doing most of the ghostwriting for, for Larson and others including a couple of books, um. And I never, I, I really, with, with Dilworth, I was gonna come here and go work with Dilworth becomes governor. I would work with him

01:48:32.799 - 01:48:52.310

and go into a political future. But um he lost and, and um he asked me to come into his law firm. I'd become very independent and just the way he was, he was a great influence on me. He would, he would um tell it exactly the

01:48:52.310 - 01:49:03.990

way it was even if it hurt. And I asked him if I would be able to uh turn down some clients if I didn't like what they were doing and he said no. So I said, well, I'm not gonna do it. I, I found, I said

01:49:03.990 - 01:49:20.220

the place in the world. In my law, where you're your own boss and I wanna be like my father, an independent grocer, I wanna be an independent actor and he said, what is it? I said, the law professor. I, I don't report to anybody. They do

01:49:20.220 - 01:49:35.649

whatever they want. And, you know, responsibly, but they, they don't have, you know, whether, whether there's a law review, um, meet all these deadlines, they, they work it out their own way. So he said, well, come on, I, I'll take you to Temple. I know the

01:49:35.649 - 01:49:51.270

dean. I said, I don't know about Temple. I didn't even know about. I mean, I never paid attention to Temple, uh, growing up in Philadelphia, in those days, everything that I knew was east west. Uh, from west western suburbs where I was where I was at

01:49:51.270 - 01:50:09.819

that point, not Yayden wasn't west, but I was moving out to Gladwin. Uh, all the way down to City Hall and into the Delaware River and over into Camden. And you could turn right and go south, but no one ever turned left to go north. who

01:50:09.819 - 01:50:27.560

was oriented towards. Uh, the west, in fact, all the public transportation either went east west or North South Broad Streets, and, and the culture Temple was totally north south. All its students came from the, from the north or the south on the Broad Street subway. And

01:50:27.560 - 01:50:46.419

they were not expressways at that point. So I said, OK, I'll, I'll go and talk to them, but then I also, pardon me, um. Um, I talked to them and lo and behold, I ended up at Temple Law School, um, and. After 1 year, in fact,

01:50:46.490 - 01:50:59.589

after 3 months, they were getting, they were, there was a cabal to get rid of the dean. And I had, I couldn't stand that kind of stuff. I went to the exact to the vice president of academic affairs like the provost. I told him I want

01:50:59.589 - 01:51:11.549

a leave of absence. He said, what do you mean you want a leave of absence. You only have a one-year contract. How can you get a leave of absence when there's nothing to leave from? I said, I still want a leave of absence. Anyway, the two

01:51:11.549 - 01:51:25.600

of us somehow hit it off. He was a very conservative guy, Paul Anderson. Um, again, became one of my mentors. He gave me to leave. I went to Yale. I went up with I wanted to go up there and really expand my horizons there with McDougall

01:51:25.600 - 01:51:43.209

and Lasswell. And it turns out that while I was there. And, Anderson kept calling me to ask me who should be the dean, and I finally gave him, uh, you know, I went through a lot of names with him and finally told him, I think is

01:51:43.209 - 01:51:55.640

what I've seen so far, if you wanna really elevate the place academically, Mel Shim S H I M M from from Duke, uh whom I knew well. I knew a lot of them at Duke, but he was, he was, I thought really a classy guy. And

01:51:55.640 - 01:52:14.709

he was offered the job eventually, but he turned it down because his wife wanted to resume her psychiatric practice, having raised the children. It was like that was 1965. Um And so I mentioned that because then I, then I became a fairly hot prospect. I had

01:52:14.709 - 01:52:30.649

offers from Wiscon all around the country, uh, through McDougal, and, um, Anderson got me to come back to Temple and he, I think he raised my salary 50%. It wasn't very much to begin with, but 50% was a lot, and, and he, he advanced me to

01:52:30.649 - 01:52:45.879

an associate professorship. I didn't ask for anything. You know it wasn't as though I was asking. He was just doing this, so I came back and I worked very hard. That's when I took my first trip abroad. I went to the 1967 at back at Temple

01:52:45.879 - 01:53:05.490

in 1965, 2 years later, I, uh, teaching a lot of international courses. I went to. Uh, India for the State Department. And on the way over, uh, after going to Geneva for a meeting, I stopped in Athens just overnight because the junta had taken over Greece,

01:53:05.629 - 01:53:20.359

the military, and they wanted to talk to me about putting a summer program in law there, and I remember going being met at the airport and going through this is the first experience in Greece landing. I said, man, this is beautiful. My parents never told me

01:53:20.359 - 01:53:34.990

about this, how gorgeous this is like San Francisco but even prettier. And I met and I go there and to make a long story short, I would not agree to do what they wanted. They had their machine guns to all that um because they had arrested

01:53:34.990 - 01:53:50.660

Stellios Nestor, N E S T O R, who was a graduate student at Penn Law School when I was a senior. They arrested him and they had given him the phalange treatment, you know, beating to his feet because they claimed he was trying to overthrow the

01:53:50.660 - 01:54:09.259

military regime. And it's so, you know, I I hate to put all these asides, but it's so interesting that um I opened that program the year after the junta was overthrown. In fact, 3 days after the junta was overthrown, I met the rector of the university

01:54:09.259 - 01:54:27.500

that, uh, they call him the rector there, like the vice chancellor of the provost, and we agreed on the program, but we had waited until after the junta was overthrown uh in 1973 and the program began in 1975 in the first. The first The 2nd year

01:54:27.500 - 01:54:42.589

of the first year of the program, I went over and taught um Um, one of the courses. And I had Stelius Nestor and this is the National Protection of Human Rights Court. Stelius Nestor come in and teach his case because it was a very well known

01:54:42.589 - 01:54:59.310

case in the, in the books. Um, and what he did was eventually to take us to the kind of theos prison, the, the, the major prison in Athens, you know, in Europe, in most places they have a political wing and a, and a real and a,

01:54:59.350 - 01:55:11.790

and a criminal wing, and he was in the political wing. I mean, he was put all over Greece, but that's where he ended up, and he had told me that he told the class of his jailer and said, you're a very respectable man. He was a

01:55:11.790 - 01:55:30.959

law professor, a lawyer. Uh, we don't have anything against you. We're just doing our job. Remember, superior orders, uh, thinking of Nuremberg, um, and. Today It's you. Tomorrow it'll be your cap it'll be those who put you here, uh, you know what goes around comes around.

01:55:31.250 - 01:55:49.720

He took us to the prison. And the same jailer was there. He came out to see him. And guess who was in his cell? One of the four junta leaders was in his cell. What goes around comes around, and the other illustration, a very poignant illustration.

01:55:50.240 - 01:56:09.310

Anyway, so I, I got to Greece at that point, uh, in 1967, we went back in 1971 for a eight month leave study leave, um, at that point I had published the. Uh, what's known the Leo Corres report, the bar exam that had been made public

01:56:09.310 - 01:56:25.700

just the day before we left the country with, uh, and Vice President Agnew, I know, attacked me very around the country, uh, for having no, uh, interest in standards by having reduced quality to let blacks in. So I pointed out that he's a graduate of, of

01:56:25.700 - 01:56:37.839

Baltimore, which is an unapproved law school. What does he know about quality? Oh, I did that. I wasn't gonna take anything from, from Spiro Agnew, um, at the time. And he was a Greek and he was, and the Greeks loved him. One of the reasons that

01:56:37.839 - 01:56:59.160

the Greeks have always, some of them have, have always had it against me is because I, I did put him in short pants, um. But at any rate, Baltimore since has been accredited, has been approved. Now, um, going from there to um. From, from '67 and

01:56:59.160 - 01:57:14.520

'71, we spent that year in, in that eight months in Europe and Athens and other parts of Greece and you could see the repression, what a dictatorship meant. I mean, it's, it wasn't the same as my living there all the time, but I could, I knew

01:57:14.520 - 01:57:31.020

you couldn't do certain things. People couldn't talk a certain way and and later when I went to the Soviet Union on behalf of Sharansky was 9th month anniversary of his. Of this incarceration when they had to give recharges under the constitution I had, I saw what

01:57:31.020 - 01:57:48.089

it was like to have a, a, a not sort of a a petty dictatorship like the Greeks had but a very, a very sophisticated one where you could not even leave your taxi cab, you couldn't open the door because the KGB would come right up against

01:57:48.089 - 01:58:03.529

your door just to intimidate because we were, we were agitating while we were over there all these things. I, the common theme is that all these things have led over a period of time to my, to my values, um, the values that my very much that

01:58:03.529 - 01:58:26.470

my parents had instilled in us in their own way. And uh the interest in international reached a point where we opened in law school, we opened a summer program in Ghana in Israel in In uh Greece and in Rome and we had faculty from those, those,

01:58:26.520 - 01:58:43.120

the 1st 3 coming to Temple Law School and for instance, um. Aaron Barak was the dean at at at um at at Hebrew University when we went there. Now Aaron Barak has not only been the temple, he, he teaches once a year at Yale. Aaron became

01:58:43.120 - 01:58:59.229

attorney General and Justice and Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. He's the fellow that was referred to by by Begin at Camp David as the Brandeis of Israel. And his successor Zamir, Yitzhak Zamir followed the same, these are the people we negotiated, you know, I went

01:58:59.229 - 01:59:23.810

over to negotiated a deal with. He became attorney general and justice. And and Yehuda Bloom became. UN ambassador. In the case of um Greece And Ghana, there's a comparable guy in each one. Each had a junta, each over got rid of the junta, and each had

01:59:23.810 - 01:59:44.069

a new constitution prepared. Spiliotopoulos. Wrote the Greek constitution and John Doe wrote the Ghanaian constitution. I brought them together. And, and they discussed in that process they were both teaching for us and overseas, uh, ideas. They both had, for instance, uh, a clause that you cannot

01:59:44.069 - 02:00:04.709

suspend this constitution because what the dictatorships always suspend the constitu there was a clause in there. Well, Spiliopoulos, uh, the Greeks ended up, um. Getting rid of the hunter for good. Whereas in Ghana after 3 years Rawlings took over the country in 1981 and he start

02:00:04.709 - 02:00:22.100

killing people and John Doe ended up with us here we had to bring him over here and he's he's retiring now, very distinguished. The point is that I have found that the commonality and interests and the challenges run across national lines. We tend to only think

02:00:22.100 - 02:00:47.569

of ourselves as as lawyers within a very narrow, uh, jurisdiction. But the issues are very comparable even though the language may be different, even though it's characterized a different way. And, and, um In the case of uh of um. Of The 4th 1, uh, Rome. That

02:00:47.850 - 02:01:03.069

we already had a an art program there and. When I later on when I became president we expanded we went into Japan where we have by far the best foreign program. No, nobody, no, no ifs and buts or maybe it has that that program is about

02:01:03.069 - 02:01:20.660

2000 students, more than 2000 students, uh, undergrads and grad. There's a law program. The only, um, semester abroad that's not in England, um, in law schools is in in is the one we have in, in, um. In Japan, and that is, uh, you know, there are

02:01:20.660 - 02:01:37.520

10 applicants for each of those seats from around the country. It's a very successful program. Our program in China when I spent um. I spent two meetings with Zhang Jing. The the second one was 2 weeks before Clinton got there in the same, you know, the

02:01:37.520 - 02:01:55.399

same compound, and we spent an hour together and he said it was the first time in 5000 years they were permitting any, any foreign university to grant a law their law degree to Chinese lawyers and judges within China and that program is a 2 year program

02:01:55.399 - 02:02:12.359

and it requires a summer in Philadelphia, but it's very successful. And um again in Korea the same we we we signed the agreement that the one in China's law, but the one in Korea and Japan across the board, uh, we suspended the Korean program because of

02:02:12.359 - 02:02:29.680

the financial. Um, disaster that occurred on the foreign exchange about 4 years ago, but if you see there's a common thread of of that international, but at the same time when I became dean we, we built up our legal aid office. And we made it a

02:02:29.680 - 02:02:53.899

full service operation for area area clients, not class action cases, but really mundane. It was civil representation with the kind of legal or criminal I was doing as a law student. We opened clinical programs. We began pre-clinical programs and we, uh, emphasized more and more the

02:02:53.899 - 02:03:11.250

admissions process and we created, um, a. Basically what the Supreme Court did in Bakke was to was to ratify our program. They referred to the Harvard program, but it was our program that was really uh the alternative to the uh to the, uh, Davis program that

02:03:11.470 - 02:03:38.600

they had um. Uh, they had, um, they had technically before them. And um by. Emphasizing issues like. Uh, the Soviet jewelry, um. Blacks in the. And In inner cities. Um, all of those issues that really have taken up most of my time. Well you can see

02:03:38.600 - 02:04:00.189

a common thread there of an intensely local and personalized agenda, not international but very local, and that's consistent with with my theory that life is a series of concentric circles it's a process of, um, of it's not something static but it's an ongoing process and that

02:04:00.439 - 02:04:20.759

while any given point you might take a snapshot and see something more as a regional or a. Or a corporate matter rather than a human or a intensely local or an international matter but. Eventually you can if with the right kind of functional approach. You can

02:04:20.759 - 02:04:39.660

understand all of them and deal with all of them, and that's where McDougall and Lasswell, uh, became the most important influences certainly in my adult life and giving me the theoretical framework to be able to understand this to, to deal within it and eventually to uh

02:04:39.660 - 02:05:00.919

help shape an institution along those lines without many people knowing uh McDougal and Laswell. So Now you talk about your both domestic and international how there there's a tie between the two of them. What which of which of the domestic experiences and which of the international

02:05:00.919 - 02:05:10.740

experiences are you, are you most proud of that you would point to and say I'm this in my life, this is it too tough to, I've never looked at life that way. I've never looked at, you know, what I'm proud of and what I'm not. I

02:05:10.740 - 02:05:23.580

know I can tell you all the a lot of mistakes I've made. And I know I'm a tough, I'm very hard to interview because I tend to go off um in a, in a, in a manner to take related issues, but I would try to answer

02:05:23.580 - 02:05:45.120

that, um. You know, I, I really, I really. I, I really don't have such great, I can't point to things and say I think I did a good job or not. I know that I, I could do things a lot better. Um I think the most

02:05:45.120 - 02:06:02.839

important reason for my success to the extent I've been successful is that I have had a knack all my life of getting the people around me who are smarter, better. More sensitive, uh, more articulate. I've been, I've been unbelievably lucky in picking, knowing how to pick

02:06:02.839 - 02:06:19.040

people. So if you look at who's work with me, my gosh, I mean, how could I not succeed with these people, um, and, and, um. I tend to listen to them much more than outsiders think. You know, I'm arguing with them all the time, telling you,

02:06:19.049 - 02:06:37.910

you know, you're full of malarkey, but I'm taking their, their views very carefully considering them. I don't, I really, I think what I enjoy the most is, is working. I've always enjoyed working with individuals with students in particular, which is why I, I, I'm teaching again

02:06:37.910 - 02:07:00.100

full time, um, watching them develop, um, even something as mundane as, as coaching uh. 11 year olds in basketball. I mean, it's to teach them what it's like to be part of a group, a team. When some of them are, are, are, are only children, only

02:07:00.100 - 02:07:18.370

child in the family, very self-centered. I had this year 9 kids, you know. And including my grandson, he's a very good ballplayer. He's the best one of that league. But he didn't play any more than anybody else played because everybody played. Uh, 5, I played 4,

02:07:18.620 - 02:07:32.850

played half of the game, but half of each quarter. So if you break a game down into the, into the quarters, it's really 8 parts. So he may have played 5 because they're 9, so you had some played 5 and some played 4, but 4 of

02:07:32.850 - 02:07:47.549

the youngsters were not even 4 ft 6. And we're dealing with one team that had a player 5' 11, and, and a ballplayer. Now, how do you get these 4 ft 6-inch kids to feel as though they're part of the team? First of all, they take

02:07:47.549 - 02:08:00.600

a shot, they can't reach the basket. Uh, they can, but it's with, it's with the, with the. No, we, we had to give them their roles. Their roles were to drive the, the dribblers crazy, just the little guys, and you go just take the ball away,

02:08:01.120 - 02:08:18.660

jump on it. Well, to see them develop over a period of 3 months. Into a cohesive unit. And you know, to win the big game of the year with the conference championship and for every one of them to feel as though he contributed. Uh, I think

02:08:18.660 - 02:08:34.669

it is one of my major accomplishments. I think it's more important than and, and, and they, they're gonna leave now. They may have learned a little bit about basketball, but they learned something more importantly that 9 + 33 coaches equals a lot more than 12 if

02:08:34.669 - 02:08:49.069

you work together. And that is something um I didn't grasp as a playing ball as a youngster. I was always a team-oriented guy. Uh, but I never thought of it in those terms. I just thought that, you know, you just try your best for the team,

02:08:49.410 - 02:09:06.359

this. But um with my kids, I explained to them these things we're gonna try to demonstrate that 9 and plus 3 is equal more to more than 12. It equals a big 1. I guess I hate to disappoint you by that. No, no, that's fine. No,

02:09:06.439 - 02:09:19.120

that's good. I like that answer. Um, I just wanna move on to your time as a dean, just get ask a few specific questions about, um, how you became dean and how if you were prepared for it, what were the new challenges you face as Dean

02:09:19.120 - 02:09:34.729

as opposed to professor and, and how you legal education. Well, if I had not been exposed to McDougal the last, well, I would not have been, um, I would not have been prepared. I would have not done a good job as dean, um, but I knew

02:09:35.379 - 02:09:57.450

what I thought. Where I thought legal education should go, it should be much broader than simply training um the brightest youngsters to become lawyers. It should include who the best are throughout the larger community. Um, secondly, the education should be more than simply a matter of,

02:09:57.459 - 02:10:16.270

of 3 years of constant refining of the term DUE. Um, it should be. With or without process, uh, it should be, oh, it should, it should have the students understand the human parts and this may be difficult for you to grasp now, but you have to

02:10:16.270 - 02:10:37.669

go back 30 years. If you go back to 1939, the first book. In, in um in legal 49, I guess it was, the first book in law school. Uh, the one by Wexler. And uh what was his name, um, from Colombia in criminal law brought in

02:10:38.169 - 02:11:02.200

something other than cases actually had. Excerpts from articles. The law legal education was all appellate cases and it just turned me off in terms of uh the real what life is really all about. Well, um, in the context of um. Of them Of Of getting of

02:11:02.200 - 02:11:18.109

going over at at the temple by the way, I didn't mention that Philip Meacham, who was my agency teacher at Temple and also my uh. They got it for trust Um, I brought over there to be when he retired here to teach at trust in the

02:11:18.109 - 02:11:37.850

states at, at, at, at Temple and. He, he, his father was one of the original casebook guys and it was all appellate cases. But I, I, what I, what I, if because of McDougal Laswell, I was able to understand a little more about context. And and

02:11:37.850 - 02:11:56.970

that whatever you do in life is value oriented there's nothing that's neutral. You're always moving to either achieve more information, more wealth more power, more respect and what people seek out of life, more money, more, um, prestige, more feelings of rectitude and if you think in

02:11:57.209 - 02:12:19.240

in those terms you're better able to understand why law uh what we call law. And the words within law, that is, uh, you know, uh, something like a stitch in time saves 9 in haste makes waste, uh, preliminary negotiation offer. All of law is, is paired

02:12:19.240 - 02:12:41.490

up against each other. They're, they're correlatives and it is because, not a coincidence, it's because what comes out of life. Framing of issues and they start by saying, You know, you're going too fast, you're going too slow, um. You're supposed to bring, uh, clean bottles, not

02:12:41.490 - 02:13:04.959

rusty bottles, and eventually, when it gets all the way up to the lawyers. And higher they come up with one or two words to or a phrase to to uh characterize or describe the situation. And I remember with McDougal Laswell taking every, every kind of legal

02:13:04.959 - 02:13:19.450

term I could think of and trying to find its opposite and it's very simple. I mean it it takes almost no time to do it after, after you start thinking in those terms and I said we have to expose our students right away to the broadest,

02:13:19.759 - 02:13:34.779

you know, there's always one course where there's a giveaway course and they and for us it became jurisprudence, but I was chairman of the curriculum committee the year before I became dean. And forced that through and even brought McDougall and Laswell down among others, it was

02:13:34.779 - 02:13:51.290

a requirement of all first year students to teach it. It was, you know, the faculty got rid of it about 6 years later because it was, it was just so tough, um, and it, it was intellectually stimulating, but it was very boring because of the, uh,

02:13:51.299 - 02:14:07.209

the, the, the, the, the method which was being used at any rate, um, I thought that we should. We should move very quickly. In fact, over the 3 or 4 years before I became Dean, I was explaining to the president Dean Weinstein, who was a young

02:14:07.209 - 02:14:19.790

24 year old, uh, how we were going to have, um, programs abroad, how we were going to have legal aid, how we're gonna have clinical education, how we're gonna have all these things, and, and so he came to the law school he said nothing's here. I

02:14:19.790 - 02:14:35.669

said, well, it's early yet, we'll get there. He, he talks, he makes the speech about reminiscing about the future. That was all because of the. Of the courage that I received from. Um, working with McDougall and Laswell at Yale, I mean those two people more than

02:14:35.669 - 02:14:52.830

and Reisman, uh, who was very young, younger than I, um. Should be included in that um William Michael Reisman, but McDougall and Laswell, um. We're able not only see I didn't have any, any classes I had to go to. I just did whatever I wanted to

02:14:52.830 - 02:15:11.339

know, and I worked with Laswell on communications theory, linguistics theory. I worked with McDougal on a series of international law issues we disagreed about a lot of things substantively made no difference. Um, it was his it was his, uh, the procedures, the, the way of thinking,

02:15:11.669 - 02:15:31.839

his, his ability to move away from the quadrangle approach where everything is limited. And so I was prepared. I thought terrifically from the academic side, well, within 6 weeks though of becoming dean, the entire place burned down. The, the law building, everything burned down and, and,

02:15:31.870 - 02:15:45.470

um, it was during a strike and the president, now then the president who appointed me the dean, the fellow who was who wouldn't give me the leave at first, he gave me the leave and wanted to get a, get a good dean. And, and, uh, later

02:15:45.470 - 02:16:07.240

became the president and he appointed me Dean eventually after a year of search and he, he, he went to his grave convinced that it was the, the, uh, the international, uh, um. Um Engine engineers, the, the engineers set the fire, uh, but it was not set

02:16:07.240 - 02:16:22.759

by the engineer. It was a short circuit in an old building, the old KI synagogue, which was our law library was designed by Sanford White, um, and. And we, it was, it turned out to be my first test, and I, and I saw this as a

02:16:22.759 - 02:16:38.559

great opportunity, uh, for the law school and we, we were able to have thousands of people come in with the book brigades and to save the books, um, we, um, we were able to. You know, the fire took place 2 days after the announcement that 3

02:16:38.559 - 02:16:53.549

women and 3 blacks had been appointed to the faculty. Within 6 weeks, Dolores Slovetter was one of them. Thoris Corman Slovetter, uh, Carl Singly, not Singly, uh, Pat Swigert, who's now president of Howard University, Drew Day, who was a solicitor general, and these were not, these

02:16:53.549 - 02:17:08.969

were not, these are people who, who could, who would not be considered for most law schools because first they were black. Secondly, they didn't have the traditional uh step, you know, to go from here to a federal clerkship to a. To a Supreme Court clerkship and

02:17:08.969 - 02:17:30.830

over like Kurt Wright, for instance, who was my classmate at Gun. Um, and so Um, from that fire and the enormous publicity that we received and how we ended up getting a bonanza of, of insurance money. And, and, um, we accelerated the completion of a new

02:17:30.830 - 02:17:53.900

building. Um And with uh with tremendous support from the state. And at that point, at that point, Nixon's getting impeached. And so, um, I'm now A name to become counsel to the judiciary Committee. And that's all we needed. We're just really getting started and we, we

02:17:53.900 - 02:18:08.009

got rid of that in 24 hours. 24 hours later I said we have to stop this because it's uh it's gonna hurt us. From then on, the we were able to get things done at the law school. And, um, you know, from then I, I took

02:18:08.009 - 02:18:25.639

a leave and ran for the US Senate, um, as in 19. In the '79 and, and the first three months of '80. And, and then came back. And finished up a lot of things at the law school and then. Uh, the last thing in the world

02:18:25.639 - 02:18:40.428

I ever thought of was being president of a university. But if I was gonna be present any place, it would have been Temple because at Temple, I fell in love with the idea of evening division as well as day with students from every first generation Americans

02:18:40.428 - 02:18:57.749

coming in there, uh, a tradition of having women in the school from 1891, 1891, tradition of having blacks in the place, even though we had to start all over again at the law school, but temple itself, a larger temple had a wonderful um track record here.

02:18:58.230 - 02:19:14.070

But it was in a lot of trouble, financial trouble, and qualitatively it was, um, it was mixed and it was a tremendous inferiority complex, so I figured out how to put Temple on the map through sports and through a lot of things like that, uh, get

02:19:14.070 - 02:19:31.518

a lot of notoriety, win and then get their attention and you know. So so it's it's worked out pretty well. You hired, uh, John. Yeah, he was, he was my first hire as president. You know, uh, and that was very controversial. That was they were claiming

02:19:31.518 - 02:19:42.718

I was trying to get rid of a white guy for a black guy and I said, all I wanna do is win a championship. I don't like care if he's white or black, and they have a great picture of Cheney and me kissing with the front

02:19:42.718 - 02:20:01.990

page of the of the sports section of the of the uh of the uh. I guess it was the Enquirer, a whole almost a whole page. The, the idea of the and all my mail then started coming in. Quote, *** lover, unquote. That's, that's what I've,

02:20:02.160 - 02:20:19.620

I've always been known as that plus. Only do things for Jews and women and blacks. That's all, that's all I heard, which is, which is so unfair because um the people who have benefited from all these initiatives is um is everybody, all the groups, everybody, mainly

02:20:19.620 - 02:20:38.610

individuals, not so much groups but. Um, I never made an appointment that I didn't think was the best appointment, uh, for the position and the most qualified person by my definition of qualification, not somebody else's. How were you able to get more, uh, women and minorities

02:20:38.610 - 02:20:54.049

into the law school? I was very, uh, that was the at the faculty level it was just very aggressive moves and, and I was not a dictatorial dean at first, but I really, uh, consulted, then I did what I was gonna do, uh, even the law

02:20:54.049 - 02:21:06.950

related education, the elite program, the faculty said they didn't want it. So I said fine, I'll get somebody else to do it, but we're gonna have it at the Temple Law School. I so you couldn't do that today. Uh, I mean, No Dean would, no Dean

02:21:06.950 - 02:21:19.709

that I know would do that at a, at a, at a big law school, but it's the most popular program at the law school and the faculty all embrace it. Uh, and I had the money for it from the outside and it, it, it, it dovetailed

02:21:19.709 - 02:21:36.219

with, with wanting law to be more than simply a um an exercise for the privileged few who can become lawyers. Um, it was more of a, of an outreach program. Um, but women and minorities, we are, we were by bringing in 3 or 4 at the

02:21:36.219 - 02:21:51.379

beginning, we were the hottest place for people to come to because I knew they wouldn't be out there on their own having to fight everyone. As to the program, the space program, special special admissions and curriculum experience program, that meeting took place on the 1st, on

02:21:51.379 - 02:22:07.790

the 6th of June 1968, the day that Robert Kennedy died, and, and it was really, I looked at the, I was not the dean. Uh, looked at the uh student body. See, when I was in India, I was speaking on international issues, investment, etc. but I

02:22:07.790 - 02:22:30.309

had to pick up Justice Tom Clark's, um, itinerary because he, he, uh, contract, contracted, uh, um, hepatitis, so I had to discuss civil rights at that point. America was 1967 was inflamed Detroit, California, Newark, um, and. I had to speak on civil rights. Now I was

02:22:30.309 - 02:22:44.879

there for 8 or 9 weeks and I went, I was drawing big crowds, mainly protesters protesting the Vietnam War, which I would, I had my own views on the Vietnam War, and they were not, they were not, uh, pacifist views, nor were they very hawkish views.

02:22:44.950 - 02:23:02.400

They were very pragmatic views. But I had to speak on civil rights a lot. And that experience in India got me to move away again from the international and move myself back to the local issues. So by the time I became dean, I was big on

02:23:02.400 - 02:23:16.879

this in local stuff. Now in 1968 after I came back from from India, I start looking at all of our programs. And I found there were 2 blacks in the student body, and the student body that day, in those days was about 580. There were 3

02:23:16.879 - 02:23:36.339

women, 5 out of the out of the 500 and some were blacks or women. And, and uh we set about. Mainly for blacks now, um, we, we, we set about to uh deal with it, but at the beginning and all the way through, I said we're

02:23:36.339 - 02:23:53.820

never gonna set aside seats because I remembered my experiences with Foster Reeve. We and others we're never going to, um, we're never going to um open a program that somebody else is not eligible so we have to have standards that really are for real. So the

02:23:53.820 - 02:24:09.950

standards we had, you know, yeah, if you had, if you were summa cum lauda phi beta kappa, you can get in even with a terrible SA to LSAT. If you would work your way through school. For 40, 40, 50 hours a week. If you had created

02:24:09.950 - 02:24:33.759

some leadership examples by opening, let's say uh an alternative school, um, if, if your first language at home was not standard English. If you had to overcome, I know these are different, overcome um discrimination. In your life as a as a as a based on color.

02:24:34.540 - 02:24:50.959

Uh, or religion And if you had Not not a Phi Beta Kappa. If you had a very strong, you always had to have a strong academic average, we would look beyond the LSAT and that program at all times had many more whites in it than blacks.

02:24:51.879 - 02:25:07.059

In fact, I can mention mayor of Philadelphia. I can mention people who were in there who, including whites who were in there who didn't know they came in through that program, although the letter told him that I was insisted that everybody get the same letter that

02:25:07.059 - 02:25:19.839

came in through that special admissions program and I remember one guy making a big political speech and I called him up and I said, before you go any further. Look at your letter and if you don't have it, I'll send you a letter of, of a

02:25:19.839 - 02:25:36.030

copy of your letter. He became then a big fan of the program because it was not like most of these programs where you simply took blacks and gave them a different standard than the whites. Now the women by there were so many women who at that

02:25:36.030 - 02:25:50.950

point wanted to come back to law school and so we created what is known as a part-time day division as well as we always had the part-time evening but we created a called an extended day program so that you could go instead of 3 years full

02:25:50.950 - 02:26:07.059

time you could go 4 years with or without summers and depending on whether you did summers you would do more or less during the regular year. That's the old evening program, but our faculty, it was by one vote that it passed. They don't want that. And,

02:26:07.370 - 02:26:22.500

and, and that, that, that became great for women with who had home responsibilities. They had to be home at nighttime. They were many of them came that way. So, but basically it wasn't so much what we did. It was simply as I would tell all the

02:26:22.500 - 02:26:40.780

alumni when they would they would complain and complain that their sons were not getting in. I said it's because your daughters are. Uh, what happened was they went from, um, from something like 8% of the of the application, 5% of the applications being women, to 40%

02:26:40.780 - 02:26:58.120

over a period of less than a decade. And now, you know, if you count women and and blacks in the student body. Uh, it's gonna be over 50%, most of them were it was a 5% in 1968. So again it was that experience what provoked it

02:26:58.120 - 02:27:13.910

for me was my having to defend civil rights in the US, uh, in India to hostile audiences. I mean the Punjab University in in in Kashmir. Uh, I must have had. A couple of 1000 students there and they were, they say, are you a, you know,

02:27:14.030 - 02:27:25.950

are you a CIA agent? My answer was not to the best of my knowledge. See, I don't know I know what, how do I know what I am? Never went over too, too well, those things, jokes don't go over well with them folks like that, but

02:27:25.950 - 02:27:40.459

I came back and said. Look, I know that the more blacks go to college in the US per capita than all Germans go to college in Germany. I know all those data. I said I'm not sure that means very much um and uh let's see what's

02:27:40.459 - 02:27:54.799

happening in our own in our own backyard. So I've always believed that we should look at what's happening around the world but always keep our eye on what's happening at home and straighten that out. So I was prepared uh for all these things when I went

02:27:54.799 - 02:28:08.240

into the deanship and when later when I became president. So what, what were the new challenges that you faced as you became president and how, how, how different was that experience? It was some of it similar, but I try to mention before that the, uh, the,

02:28:08.250 - 02:28:28.179

the biggest, the biggest knock on Temple University was its own people didn't really um respect it enough. When I'm talking about the whole, the whole looking at all of Temple, you see, Temple was like a couple of buildings and there was a subway getting there and

02:28:28.509 - 02:28:47.990

people associated their their undergraduate experience at Temple with having to work at 40 hours a week someplace having to come in and out of the subway stand in lines to get things done, leave right away, no, no relationship with. Other, uh, uh, other than the students

02:28:47.990 - 02:29:06.450

in their class with other students, uh, with events, with sporting events, with cultural events, uh, you know, with the residential, um, and. And that, um. Looking back, I said, man, that was the worst time of my life. A lot of people would say that, and they'd

02:29:06.450 - 02:29:19.730

send their children to Penn because they had enough money or they send them to some other place. I said, what we have to do is, is to have is to is to is to identify what's good about Temple and have people understand it and where it's

02:29:19.730 - 02:29:36.589

not good we have to correct it or get rid of it and we're gonna do it in a way we're gonna emphasize. Uh certain high visibility programs which we did, you know, whether it was the hospital or the basketball or, um, and we have to build,

02:29:36.839 - 02:29:55.110

uh, we have to build a eventually build a residential community here very tough to do in North Philadelphia, uh, with the history of temple overrunning. Uh, in the 50s and early 60s, um literally hundreds of homes in the immediate area. Penn did it and got away

02:29:55.110 - 02:30:11.849

with it and so did Drexel. They went all the way through though. They didn't stop halfway through like Temple did. Um, so we were, it's taken us a while to do that, but now instead of 2/3 of the undergrads being from 80% being from Philadelphia, not

02:30:11.849 - 02:30:30.830

fewer than 30% are now from Philadelphia instead of um 8% living on campus or right immediately around campus, it's now in terms of the new students coming in, it's 80% wanting to live on the campus or immediately around. Instead of having 400 students living on the

02:30:30.830 - 02:30:52.389

campus immediately around, we now have over 5500, um, and, and if you take the full time and, and that's going to grow to at least 7000 over the next 3 years. And, and, um, we, um, Temple has always had a, a very strong. Um, array of,

02:30:52.469 - 02:31:11.299

of, of groups represented, um, it used to be that. You were never over 8%. And that you were, if you were over 8% black, you were 92%. There wasn't anything in between. You don't find 20% places with 20% blacks. They were either black or they weren't.

02:31:12.070 - 02:31:30.330

And uh we were able to get to about 17% black I think when I went in I think it's 21% now um at the same time the Asian community started to come in and and there's some antipathy historically between the two groups on campuses, not so

02:31:30.330 - 02:31:51.570

much on our campus but around the country they tend, you know, tend to go to different places, um, well, I think about 14% of our students now are Asian Asian background. But Temple would have more first generation Cambodians, Laotians than, uh, second generation Chinese. Um, Penn

02:31:51.570 - 02:32:11.860

would probably have the opposite. So Temple, we have an enormous Russian population, new Russians. Uh, it's always been the case the temple has been the place for the immigrants to come to school, uh, the children of the immigrants of the, and, and, uh, today though, the

02:32:11.860 - 02:32:31.259

immigrants come in from India, they come in as middle class Republicans. They don't come in as, as little, uh, uh, washing, washing cars, uh, uh, voting for Franklin D. Roosevelt like, uh, 4060 years ago, so you have to, uh. Be careful not to generalize too much,

02:32:31.309 - 02:32:43.660

but we could see what had to be done at Temple, and I laid out before the board of trustees before I took office, you know, before they elected me and for the whole community what we're gonna do, in fact, it's stuff it's it it's my, uh,

02:32:44.070 - 02:32:59.179

this, this the, uh, the uh convocation. Uh, address, laid out everything we're gonna do and we've done it. It wasn't as though we pulled, we, we, we did something that, that we said we weren't gonna do, but most people didn't believe it that we could do

02:32:59.179 - 02:33:13.679

it or we could get done and the only reason it got done is because I had the right people in those positions and. And my bosses, the trustees were enormously supportive and and also had great ideas on how to accomplish things. What are you doing now

02:33:13.679 - 02:33:29.940

as the chancellor of the university? Well, as chancellor, I'm sort of not doing, I mean I'm helping out in fundraising. I'm gonna be more active and more visible, but I want to give my successor two years without any shadows around. What I'm doing is teaching though

02:33:29.940 - 02:33:45.540

full time. See, I have the only university wide professorship in Temple's history. I didn't realize it was that it's called university professor of law, so I teach in the law school. I teach in the undergrad. I teach graduate students, um, I can teach wherever I can

02:33:45.540 - 02:34:02.410

find a dean willing to let me teach in one of the 17 schools and I haven't tried except um. My interests are mainly with, with, with, uh, a course of intellectual heritage which is from, from Pericles to Shakespeare and then brings up to date uh through

02:34:02.410 - 02:34:20.509

Freud and all that the second semester it's my favorite because I, because you're dealing with young people and they're opening their opening their minds. For instance, you ask them, uh, take a look at Machiiaavelli and and Jesus, OK. And let's take their views about um about

02:34:20.799 - 02:34:37.480

dissension within the ranks, you know, they tell me why they're both saying the same thing why they're both moral. Well, you see, if you that really drives the the fundamentalists crazy, but, but if you think of it, one's dealing with well I think of Matthews really

02:34:37.480 - 02:34:53.320

life. Hereafter, the other guy's dealing with life right now. What's the most important thing here after is to save your soul, so you gotta do certain things. What's the most important thing right now? Save the state because it's the state that has that that that took

02:34:53.320 - 02:35:12.429

care of, you know, broke down the clans and made them part of something larger to protect people and historically Machiavelli's period, the state really was. The charismatic person in charge, so everything should be done to save that person. That's moral. Everything should be done to save

02:35:12.429 - 02:35:31.000

your life hereafter. That's moral. But see those kinds of issues are, are, are, are drive the students, um, you know, a little, uh, it, it makes them, make them think some of them get very agitated, um, but I'd rather expand their views at this point than

02:35:31.299 - 02:35:52.230

than not. What are you hoping to accomplish in the years to come, years ahead? Well, um, You know, I I'm gonna work with young people. Uh, younger than you, I mean, I've been helping out in 4th grade, um, 4th grade teaching. Helping 1/4 grade teacher in

02:35:52.230 - 02:36:07.330

the inner cities and doing one in the suburbs, uh, to see how much more well first went out to work with and the kids aren't that different. They're real bright kids, you know, you have find exceptions, but they're very bright, um. Secondly, they have a lot

02:36:07.330 - 02:36:25.750

of different amount of resources of teaching. Uh, I happen to be teaching with, with uh in in Philadelphia with a. With one of these great teachers, um, but well, she has 26 in her class and my grandson's class has 14, uh, she has nobody. I mean

02:36:25.750 - 02:36:43.320

I give her a hand. Uh, the other one, when I'm there, I haven't been there this semester though, um, the other one has. A student assistant, a student teacher, a counselor, every parent comes in there once a week, right? Well, look at the resources they're dealing

02:36:43.320 - 02:37:02.320

with the comparative resources. The buildings are both, you know, I think that the, the, the, the, the, the building, um. Um, right, the one in North Philadelphia is, is a, is a very pleasant place. It's old building versus, you know, all these beautiful buildings in Gladwin.

02:37:03.030 - 02:37:22.830

Um, I want to deal with, with the, with, with how we educate our youngsters in Philadelphia, for instance. More than half of the students who are. With present in terms of the present trends will graduate. After 12 years, if they graduate when they go out in

02:37:22.830 - 02:37:38.929

the marketplace will not be prepared for that marketplace that's 100,000 people in 12 years. That's a very serious matter. Well, folks say, well, they're gonna make reforms they're not gonna make reforms because these are not considered quote our children by the majorities with the money. If

02:37:38.929 - 02:37:53.889

they were our children, there'd be revolution going on right now. If this was a situation in Gladwin, well, God forbid anybody who worked at that place would be out, um, and so would the politicians if they didn't get the thing fixed up. Philadelphia and the inner

02:37:53.889 - 02:38:10.679

cities around the country, you're able to get by with it because the majority is black and some and and you go to Lancaster, Bethlehem, Allentown, the majority of the kids in those classes are. Of Hispanic background whose first language is not English but Spanish at home.

02:38:11.570 - 02:38:26.150

Now, to me, that's a disaster in the making. People say why don't they think ahead, but most of these people don't look ahead if there's a bus stopped on the right side on Broad Street a block ahead, they don't have enough sense to look ahead and

02:38:26.150 - 02:38:41.980

move to the left lane until they're up against and then they blow their horn and people don't look ahead and how we get, how we get reform, um, it's going to be a not a very pleasant, um, not gonna be very pleasant because so many interests

02:38:41.980 - 02:38:57.610

are involved and you know you can't blame teachers and unions and. Bureaucrats and, and the others, they all want to protect what they have. But to me, um, I want to spend the rest of my time, um, Working to ensure that young people are ready for

02:38:57.610 - 02:39:12.139

the world and that really means education at the preschool and um elementary school levels primarily. So are you totally done with politics? Oh, I never was involved. I was, I was just on the side. I don't know how I ever did that. Of course, if I

02:39:12.139 - 02:39:24.669

stayed in politics, if I'd run again, I would have won because I had very strong followings even though they might be 4 or 5% of the vote. It was they were terrified, the politicians, and that I was gonna run again and you know I, I, I,

02:39:24.740 - 02:39:38.809

I really, I, I, I didn't, it's not something that. I never really wanted to be in politics because you have to answer to everybody. You have to run every 2 years or every 4 years. In other words, you're always running and you're always worried about losing

02:39:38.809 - 02:39:54.089

your job. Um, most people spend most of their lives worrying how they're gonna keep their job, keep what they have, and get a little more, and that is a recipe for disaster when it comes to leadership because you've got to make decisions and I know I

02:39:54.089 - 02:40:10.889

was lucky I didn't have to answer to anybody for all these years except, uh, basically a half dozen board members there were 36, but just a few of them and. If I had to, uh, to go have ratification votes, well, I did, but if I really

02:40:10.889 - 02:40:30.860

had to do it the right way, um, I would say uh The second disaster, you know, there's an old story, um. That when you give your successor 3 envelopes with something written in each envelope, sealed, never to be opened one's number 11's number 2, one's number

02:40:30.860 - 02:40:44.099

3 you know after the first disaster you have, everything is ending. You might as well leave. There's no solution. Go to envelope number 1, you know what it says it open up and it says blame me and you know the same with the envelope too, but

02:40:44.099 - 02:41:03.389

envelope 3 says write 3 envelopes, um. You get a couple of chances. In politics you really don't get two chances. You get one chance and then after a long delay, uh, because of name recognition uh you can make a comeback but you need continuity if you're

02:41:03.389 - 02:41:21.410

going to make change, structural change, so I will write I'm, I'm gonna do a lot of writing also and I'm gonna do I'm gonna do more artistic things. I wanna, I wanna paint and. And uh and and work in areas expressing oneself other than verbally. Well,

02:41:21.419 - 02:41:37.900

to conclude the interview, what advice would you give to students graduating this year from Penn Law? First of all, first of all, send money back. Uh, they're lucky to go to Penn Law School. It's a, it's a wonderful everything I know about Penn is, is, um.

02:41:38.730 - 02:41:52.940

Just about everything I know about Penn today, it makes it quite comparable and, and probably even a more challenging experience than when I went to Penn Law School and as I say, many of my. Of of the things I, I treasure, um, and I tried to

02:41:52.940 - 02:42:11.190

emulate I came from experiences here from personalities here but I've been blessed by being able to be exposed in my life to so many outstanding people and you learn from outstanding people you learn from people who are very small, unquote, um, I think what they should

02:42:11.190 - 02:42:36.370

do after they come out of here is may understand who they are, what their values are. What they think is important in life. And pursue them, pursue those things, um. to deviate from them. In a major way for um personal short term gain. Um, well, eventually

02:42:36.370 - 02:42:51.969

we'll see, eventually is not the way to go, but I wouldn't pontificate with them. I'd say, look, do your thing. Um, be honest about what you do. And don't forget that you're part of something much larger and that you have the you have the obligation to

02:42:51.969 - 02:43:07.620

help the next generation get up to where you are. Mm I wish you the very best, Jay. Thank you. I, I really enjoyed this interview and thank you for giving me your time today. I'm sorry it took so long to get together, but thank you very

02:43:07.620 - 02:43:08.910

much, Jay. Thank you.