00:00:09.939 - 00:00:28.059

Well, it's um it's July 10th, 2009. I'm here with the Honorable William L. Norton. Um, you were just asking where we ended off yesterday. Um, yesterday, we stopped, you were talking. Had a really good discussion about the debate amongst the board members as to whether or

00:00:28.059 - 00:00:50.459

not judges should be included and as fellows of the college, and I was wondering, were there any other issues of debate or contention among among y'all at the beginning of the uh of the college. Um, well, let me, let me think on that you realize that,

00:00:50.470 - 00:01:13.760

uh. In this interview that we're conducting here which uh I congratulate you as a good moderator or uh. Uh, leader of, uh, good interviewer. You're a good interviewer, but, um, I, I, uh, the questions, well I had some warning that you were coming down here and

00:01:13.760 - 00:01:31.220

I wanted to look back at my record and remind myself of things still. Uh, when I go home at night after these interviews, I think of something that I should have said to you because uh I had really hadn't thought to include that, but then I

00:01:31.629 - 00:01:56.980

realized that that was, uh, some kind of important historical comment I could have made. Now as to that Um Oh when. When they first suggested that the ABI sponsor the college. Uh, then they turned to me and asked me to be the, uh, chairman of a

00:01:56.980 - 00:02:19.970

committee of one to do it and then I could bring in, uh, as members of that committee or otherwise anybody that I wanted to but get it done because previously. To that that was in '89. Uh, when I had first become president of ABI. Uh, this

00:02:19.970 - 00:02:42.740

suggestion was made previous to that, like in maybe '83 and 84, uh 85 along there, I had suggested that now one of these things we want to do ultimately when ABI gets strong is to sponsor a college because I think that will be. Uh, a, uh,

00:02:42.750 - 00:03:05.029

step forward in the recognition of, uh, premier, uh, and the elite, uh, that maybe that's a bad term, but, uh, uh, really that's what we're talking about here, the, the, the, the, the lawyers and, and judges that are accepted by their peers as as outstanding that

00:03:05.029 - 00:03:33.429

generally accepted and that's the type of people that. That they they elect as fellows. And I wrote uh For even back then when I wrote that memorandum. I wrote 4 copies of the bylaws of the American. Uh, Association of Trial Lawyers or American Trial Lawyers Association.

00:03:34.520 - 00:03:59.270

And they have an American. Uh, College of Trial Lawyers, this is not a subsidiary, I guess, but it's another organization of of the trial lawyers. And that's that's the premier of the most famous I guess uh college of of uh lawyers and and others. And then

00:03:59.270 - 00:04:22.558

I think I said that in in Atlanta I had been familiar with the fact that the two prominent real estate lawyers in Atlanta had been the leaders to form a uh. Real estate Uh, college for real estate lawyers. So I wrote those people and maybe another

00:04:22.558 - 00:04:39.278

one for a copy of their bylaws and then I had distributed those copies to the members of the executive committee I think which is like 8 or 10 or 12 people that we had on the executive committee and we discussed uh from time to time the

00:04:39.278 - 00:04:57.950

idea of a, of a college. Well then in, in '89 it was suggested that we move in that direction and then I'll be the chair. Well, I went back home and pulled out the file and sent each one of the members of the. Of the uh

00:04:59.089 - 00:05:23.420

Executive committee a copy of those bylaws, the trial lawyers College and the other, the other two I think real estate was one. And then we looked at those charters and bylaws to see. How much of that we should adopt it might be exactly like them and

00:05:23.420 - 00:05:48.329

what we finally did. Was virtually a clone of those two type organizations we took maybe uh some parts of one and some parts of the other uh to fit our bankruptcy, uh, college. Um But as I said we had judges and I don't know that uh

00:05:48.589 - 00:06:09.630

I don't know that that was dealt with in those two organizations. I don't think it was, but you see the bankruptcy practice is so close to the judges. And the bankruptcy practices really. Uh, a, uh, limited number of, uh, participants or lawyers that are practicing the

00:06:09.630 - 00:06:29.279

bankruptcy field compared to real estate compared to trial lawyers and uh the fields of law. And so we're closer to I think uh to the judges and the judges are closer to those lawyers. And But But when we said we were going to have the judges

00:06:29.489 - 00:06:58.029

as uh as uh uh as eligible to be elected uh. Uh, a fellow, then that's when, uh, Judge Tom Pay uh uh, not Tom Paine but George Paine, um, throughout this, uh, political problem. And uh So we finally after thinking about it rejected that and and

00:06:58.029 - 00:07:29.140

uh had uh the bylaws include uh the uh. Judges and we'd say other people or accountants and we named and other people who are uh regularly and into practicing in the bankruptcy arena. But it's, it was odd that only about the 2nd year. Uh, of, uh.

00:07:30.100 - 00:07:58.970

Election of fellows. This uh fear of Judge Payne. Uh, presented itself. We had uh uh a the one of the one of the councils of the. Uh, what? The of the board of uh. Rigids The board of regents was separate from the board of directors and

00:07:58.970 - 00:08:21.119

board of directors weren't were running the corporation and managing the corporation but they weren't weren't authorized or we we didn't think it's wise to have them, um. Uh, elect and consider uh the future election of our fellows and so we separated that into a board of

00:08:21.119 - 00:08:49.619

regents. And I'd forgotten whether uh that that was a a new idea or whether that was in one of those other um other uh. Associations of of colleges. But The uh The um the the board of Regents has the final say is uh of the election

00:08:49.619 - 00:09:13.640

of uh of uh fellows is uh 15 people that are that are representing circuits. We have 11, uh, circuits and plus the District of Columbia District of Columbia I think was merged into uh the 4th, uh, 4th uh uh circuit. So we had 11 and then

00:09:13.640 - 00:09:41.929

we had 3 at large so that was the the final uh group uh entity that we elected but we had uh for each, each uh. Uh, Each circuit We had a Circuit council Of 3 people I think or could be 4 I think but uh uh

00:09:41.929 - 00:10:06.330

generally there are 3 that are on the circuit council. And um Circuit council receives the nominations from uh anybody that wants to make the nomination of somebody for uh election of as a fellow. And they consider that and then then then they recommend that to the

00:10:06.330 - 00:10:31.989

uh. Uh, they reject or or decide which ones they're gonna recommend to the. A big board of of regions. Well, There was a judge that was uh. Nominated and it had a full uh I guess I wasn't involved in that but uh it was it was

00:10:31.989 - 00:10:56.169

a full. That's another thing that uh the officers original officers of the college were really the officers that we folded over from the uh. Uh, ABI But our our agreement among each other of the ABI people that was sponsoring this was that. Uh, the original officers

00:10:56.169 - 00:11:18.200

would serve only like a couple of years and then we would resign. I think I was vice president and some of our other officers were president chairman of the board. And we would resign and uh urge the uh newly elected fellows uh to become the officers

00:11:18.530 - 00:11:40.179

and that was a policy and we would to have also our 15 member board of directors by then. Well, that, uh, later, uh, there was some thought that maybe that some of the officers shouldn't get out as soon as 2 years, and, uh, we had some

00:11:40.830 - 00:12:03.520

long discussions about that. Uh, I think I know that I resigned after 2 years, uh, but, uh, finally I think after 3 or 4 years at least the new, uh, elected fellows became the total officers of the, uh, uh, college, and I believe uh we were

00:12:04.289 - 00:12:24.450

folded off of being a directors which that's we should because. It looked like you're gonna stay on forever you didn't want the original people to stay on uh very long. And uh because it's a little embarrassing I always thought. Uh, for myself, if I said this

00:12:24.450 - 00:12:48.849

before that, that, uh, I, uh, I was always. As to the college now ABI was a membership organization anybody can join. But ABI is supposed, I mean the college is a. An election of the By your peers election, uh, as to be the premier uh lawyers

00:12:48.849 - 00:13:11.049

or judges in the United States and we were automatically, uh, fellows that is the ABI officers that folded over and became officers of the college we were automatically so we in effect weren't elected that always sort of gnawed at me as to whether some other people.

00:13:11.429 - 00:13:37.169

Uh, would feel that we didn't go through the election process of the top 3 or 4 officers and, uh, we just were automatically anointed by ourselves uh as fellows and I guess that uh. Uh Was always in the back of my mind a feeling that uh

00:13:37.520 - 00:14:05.099

I didn't go through the process and I wonder if people would elect me or not and uh but anyway uh this uh this judge was was nominated. And it came before the committee. Council council and uh. He was rejected by that council, 3-person council. And then

00:14:05.099 - 00:14:29.960

uh later on. Uh, the persons, I think a bar association had nominated him. And um they wondered why. there weren't any judges elected that time. And uh people wondered why that and some people in the uh college knew this judge I say when I say some

00:14:29.960 - 00:14:49.200

people on the some of the uh some of the fellows and officers knew him. Because he's outstanding, uh, nationally outstanding he'd been a lecturer on the federal judicial Center for the seminars for bankruptcy judges and, and he'd been a writer and author and his opinions were

00:14:49.200 - 00:15:09.950

respected and, and, uh, he was a real national authority on chapter 13. And so they looked into it and found out they discussed it somebody discussed it with uh. Uh, the members of that committee and the chairman of that committee said, well, uh, one of the

00:15:09.950 - 00:15:35.799

members was dead set against him. And he was so, so, uh, firmly against uh him. That uh we didn't recommend him to the board of Regents. And uh So then those same people uh that had nominated him uh looked into the person that was dead set

00:15:35.799 - 00:15:57.070

against him and found out that he was from that very district of the judge. And that he had been uh censured once by the judge uh for uh uh plan of reorganization. Uh, in which, uh, they came up for the confirmation of the plan and one

00:15:57.070 - 00:16:21.260

of the creditors pointed out. Then what are you going to ask the judge what are you gonna do about the uh. Uh, pre. Filing A fees of this lawyer that have already been paid by the debtor during the proceeding. And the judge said what? Then they

00:16:21.260 - 00:16:45.309

explained that this lawyer representing the debtor had uh. Um, Was owed Uh, fees, uh, pre-filing, and yet he was the attorney for the, uh, debtor and as you all know that's a no no and uh there's rules against that and. And so the judge looked into

00:16:45.309 - 00:17:07.750

that and substantially cut his fee and I think made him reimburse or what the debtor had paid uh on those prepetition uh legal fees uh and then of course he uh this lawyer, uh, was incensed over this judge doing this and took an appeal and took

00:17:07.750 - 00:17:30.260

an appeal to that circuit. And then that circuit Uh, in their opinion. I pointed out that that this judge was exactly correct and should have done exactly what he did and this lawyers uh should have had his fees cut. And um That uh it probably shouldn't

00:17:30.260 - 00:17:58.060

even have been allowed to be the attorney for the debtor. And so uh. Um, In that opinion, however, Uh, they found that, uh. Uh, the court Circuit Court Uh, put in a footnote or somewhere said that uh this same lawyer had been censured before a year

00:17:58.060 - 00:18:18.099

or two before this on just about the same thing and that that the court of appeals had ruled on it then. And so uh Uh, this got back to the board of directors of of the of the college and the college says well we got to

00:18:18.099 - 00:18:42.810

take, take, take away the right of of the circuit councils and the board of regents uh electing judges because there's politics involved here uh in this uh could be politics in favor of the uh uh judge as judge Judge uh. Uh, pain uh suggested. So they

00:18:43.099 - 00:19:11.410

they amended the bylaws and the bylaws now provide that. There's a special committee for the consideration and the of recommendations of judges and the election of judges as as uh. Uh, fellows. And that committee is a national committee and not connected with the uh the others,

00:19:11.500 - 00:19:38.180

the other elections and it's geographically. Uh Widely spaced of members 6 or 7 I guess and uh that now is the election process of judges and so uh I haven't heard any criticism about uh any allegations of uh of politics or favoritism since then. Can you

00:19:38.180 - 00:20:03.400

talk about the first induction ceremony for the college? Well, let's say Uh, that was, I think in 1990 that the election of the first, uh. First, uh A group of fellows I think there was about 33 or 35 fellows inducted in that, uh, that group. Uh,

00:20:03.439 - 00:20:23.170

and as, as I mentioned before, we officers elected ourselves as, as, uh, fellows, and so the next morning we, we had the induction ceremony in the. Uh, rotunda or the Great Hall of the Supreme Court of the United States. And I don't know whether you've ever

00:20:23.170 - 00:20:44.989

been in that you walk up the steps of the, uh, uh, beautiful building of, of the Supreme Court building, one of the prettiest, if not the prettiest to me, uh, buildings in, uh, in, uh, Washington DC. I shall always remember that building because in 1938 I

00:20:44.989 - 00:21:05.199

was appointed a page for a congressman and uh got on a train uh in the afternoon uh the uh. Uh, to go to Washington and all day I was in a coach and I had, I had food that I, my mother had prepared and I ate

00:21:05.199 - 00:21:23.239

food and uh we traveled all day and then that night got to Washington about 7 o'clock at night and it was right after Christmas and I stayed 6 months up there as a page went to Capitol Page School. In the basement of the Capitol and uh.

00:21:24.209 - 00:21:47.069

That the aides or the executive director or administrative assistant of the congressman uh came to get me at the railroad station. That's another beautiful building in Washington and uh. Uh, the, uh, they took me to my, uh, hotel, which was the Dodge or Hodge, H O

00:21:47.069 - 00:22:06.900

D G E hotel, uh which is right behind one of the uh one of the house office buildings. And there's a hotel, bigger hotel now there, but this is a little little hotel 4 stories tall and they furnished our meals and I had a little room

00:22:06.900 - 00:22:28.000

about the size of a telephone booth and uh. Uh, slightly larger than that and. We was in this car and came up to the Capitol and the Capitol is lit at night as you know there was snow on the ground. So the whole place was new

00:22:28.000 - 00:22:47.660

to me and beautiful, uh, and we came up to the Supreme Court right but in the front of the Supreme Court and I looked over there and there was a Supreme Court. Encompassed with snow. Lighting all over it, beautiful lighting, uh, just, uh, like daylight, and

00:22:47.660 - 00:23:05.619

I just thought that was the most grand looking, uh, the most, uh, inspiring, uh, spectacle that I had ever seen. And that that that building strikes me that way now when I look at it, but this rotunda is at the top of the stairs, uh, and

00:23:05.619 - 00:23:25.560

it's a beautiful, uh, uh, large room, and we have the, uh, they had the first, uh, induction ceremonies there and continue to have them for a number of years and I think or at least 99% of them have been held there. The times we could not

00:23:25.560 - 00:23:49.099

get reservations for the induction ceremonies. In the Supreme Court we've held it in uh other places that are are grand or good good places uh one I think in the Richard B. Russell room which is in the Senate, um. Uh, office building and another one in

00:23:49.099 - 00:24:11.089

the uh re recently in the last couple of years in the national. What do we call it the national. Something building a beautiful building also. But uh this uh this uh first induction was there the next morning. We had a meeting of all the fellows. Uh,

00:24:11.119 - 00:24:38.089

at, uh, the hotel, the Grand Hyde, I think, or the Hyde Hotel might have been the Marriott over in the uh. Um, Over in the Alexandria area. Uh, I can't think of that area. Well, something bottom. Uh, something bottom is that developed area and bunch of

00:24:38.089 - 00:25:01.030

uh hotels over there. And we had a meeting there and that's the first time all of the uh fellows and the officers uh met at that meeting it was thrown open that. Uh, suggestions from everybody. What, what do you think this uh organization ought to, uh,

00:25:01.040 - 00:25:21.439

aspire to and and what what what programs uh do you think that uh it should be adopted and uh it's open and it was a very good uh meeting and that there were many or several suggestions made. I remember one fellow from Boston made a suggestion

00:25:21.439 - 00:25:45.079

that we should have a course. Of, uh, in college in law schools was for the college, uh, spent a lot of time with uh experts among us and, uh, uh, come up with a uh uh law bankruptcy course that also, uh, combined, uh. Maybe accounting or

00:25:45.369 - 00:26:03.760

or some other subject I forget what it was. We, I think we finally found that was so a massive of a problem that it hasn't been done yet and then I think that maybe I threw out something that I'd put in my memorandum a few years

00:26:03.760 - 00:26:27.699

previously that maybe that after a few years that the uh college should start honoring uh the uh most elite of the elite uh practitioners around the nation. Uh, that didn't have to be a member of the college, but, uh, somebody that, uh, the, uh, selection committee

00:26:27.699 - 00:26:51.140

thought had done outstanding work in the nation. And finally a few years, uh, maybe a couple of years later that was started and our first one was Frank Kennedy honored Frank Kennedy and, uh, I think then George Treer, Joe Joe Lee and then uh uh um.

00:26:52.130 - 00:27:12.510

Uh, Gerald Smith, I believe. Then the others have been uh distinguished people that have been honored in that and others I think I think at that same time. I suggested that I saw that. The lot of the books that that we had uh. In uh my

00:27:12.510 - 00:27:33.380

library as a judge. Uh, we, uh, we didn't have all that much room for libraries in the bankruptcy judge's offices and, uh, some books that were old and out of print were being discarded and maybe thrown away and then I thought that somehow or another those

00:27:33.380 - 00:28:00.390

uh. Volumes of those uh historical type books uh should be preserved in some uh library of some college and it perhaps it'd be a good idea to have an archives of that type of material, uh in uh. Uh, some central location. My idea was that it

00:28:00.390 - 00:28:20.449

probably ought to be regionally established one in the Northeast and maybe one in the Southeast and one in the Midwest and one in the southwest and one in the west coast. And it would pick out colleges it would, uh, accommodate that and establish a bank, a

00:28:20.449 - 00:28:42.569

college bankruptcy, uh, repository, uh, in those areas that lawyers could go to and see old books, for instance, Remington on bankruptcy, uh, has been a competitor to Collier over the years, a lawyer in uh. I believe I Indianapolis had come out with that book apparently a

00:28:42.569 - 00:29:00.359

prominent lawyer and uh then uh that was from 1916 or something like that to about 1952. And he died and then as a state tried to keep it up for a couple of years and then the publisher tried to keep it up and they failed and

00:29:00.359 - 00:29:21.319

it's by that time '89, it was uh 90, it was out of print. But we still had Collier going strong and we now had uh Norton Banker's Law and practice my my publication and it was going uh strong too and uh so we did have that

00:29:21.319 - 00:29:39.660

but those volumes of Remington. And there was some another couple of volumes of Nadler N A D L ER Professor Nadler uh had uh a book on bankruptcy that was done by the Harrison Company in Atlanta. And they, uh, those are out of print and therefore

00:29:39.660 - 00:30:01.089

they're gonna be lost pretty soon from libraries discarded. And so I thought that we ought to have regional. Or libraries somehow established under the college's promotion and then we would invite uh the bankruptcy judges around the nation and other lawyers around the nation to uh to

00:30:01.609 - 00:30:22.530

furnish books uh to us. I have some. Friends of bankruptcy judges that have been over the years keeping books and and acquiring old bankruptcy books. uh, Jerry Patcheon up in uh Cleveland, Ohio was used to be a referee in bankruptcy and then he was uh resigned

00:30:22.530 - 00:30:40.510

and then he was a lawyer in a big, big firm and, and then he was in other jobs around the nation as the, uh, uh, director of uh of the US trustee program. And he was uh uh head of the RTC selling uh all the savings

00:30:40.510 - 00:30:57.989

and loan properties back then he's outstanding person. He, he was a fellow that over the years kept telling me all the books he had acquired so he himself had a a library of old rare books on bankruptcy, some of them in England, some of them, well

00:30:57.989 - 00:31:19.369

those ought to be. Given to some central location and use somehow and that's what I had in mind. And uh of course now we uh have established uh uh archives under the college uh sponsorship and it's at the university of uh. Pennsylvania and you're part of

00:31:19.369 - 00:31:40.800

that now I believe you're the uh archivist or of that and that's a wonderful thing we're doing uh actually it's it uh you're doing things really broader than what I'd had uh originally envisioned that is the papers of of the people that helped write the, uh,

00:31:40.810 - 00:32:06.280

helped produce the uh bankruptcy Reform Act of 1978 and. And papers of judges I hadn't thought of that but uh but I, uh, still think that it would be nice to have uh some adjunct, uh, locations, uh, maybe one in UCLA or uh uh in in,

00:32:06.319 - 00:32:32.660

uh, or University of Washington and maybe someplace like. Uh, in Texas, University of Texas something maybe someplace in the South, maybe up here at NYU or or uh uh Saint John's College that's now emphasizing, uh, uh, bankruptcy anyway, have them regionally done. Uh, to similar, uh,

00:32:32.670 - 00:32:55.869

to what we're doing, uh, at the University of Pennsylvania. Can you talk a little bit about how the initial, uh, board of Regents was selected? I guess the original ones were just selected by the board of directors. And uh I think that's true now. I'm I'm

00:32:55.869 - 00:33:12.579

I'm really not sure about that but I mean in terms of the criteria for selection that y'all. Well, we're trying to get regional people trying to get somebody from like in the Southeast someone from Georgia, someone from Alabama, somebody from, uh, Mississippi, somebody from Georgia have

00:33:12.579 - 00:33:40.280

those three be of, uh, uh, being geographically spaced. And be uh be uh honorable uh nice people. Uh, judicially, uh, uh, and interested in the future and integrity and professionalism of the college. It's always I believe it was just picked out by the board of directors

00:33:40.819 - 00:33:57.300

that are original ones. And it may be that that's the way it's done now. I'm really can't answer that, uh, accurately. It may be that it's done, yeah, I believe it's done by the board of directors. Um, you mentioned that Frank Kennedy was the first recipient

00:33:57.300 - 00:34:17.310

of this, of this honorary, um. Accolade and I was wondering if you could talk about uh the significance, if there was any, of choosing Frank Kennedy as the first recipient. Well, I think that uh one they were trying to find the most outstanding person. Uh, in

00:34:17.310 - 00:34:47.530

the United States that, uh, was, was the most outstanding bankruptcy guru or bankruptcy expert or bank or contributed. Uh, maybe, maybe, uh, different from knowledge, maybe, uh, contributions to the bankruptcy process, uh, somebody had, had made, uh, giant contributions, uh, to our, uh, bankruptcy condition that

00:34:47.530 - 00:35:16.760

we are now, uh, benefiting from. And uh They, uh, I guess considered. I considered uh I wasn't on that selection committee, but um the uh. Uh, Frank Kennedy was almost obvious. You had another professor up in Harvard uh that was outstanding in the nation uh uh.

00:35:17.979 - 00:35:42.189

Uh, Vern Countryman. But Vern Counterman by that time was dead I believe. And so, but really I guess just the the the the name that just jumped up at you at that time was Frank Kennedy because. He had been an outstanding bankruptcy in UCC uh professor

00:35:42.189 - 00:36:08.590

at the University of Michigan. And uh National University of Michigan has always been regarded as uh an elite uh law school. And then he uh was selected to be the reporter. Of the uh Advisory committee on the bankruptcy rules about 1960 or something like that, the

00:36:08.590 - 00:36:30.060

Chief Justice Earl Warren used to be governor of California. Uh, was, uh, he's, he saw the need somebody convinced him, I guess, uh, maybe somebody at AO or whatever or judge bankruptcy judges or that there was a need to have bankruptcy rules. There was not any

00:36:30.060 - 00:36:56.360

rules uh for the bankruptcy practice. There was uh civil practice rules that had been in been, uh, promulgating in the in the 1930s. Uh, and, and. There's a process for the for the uh promulgation of uh civil practice rules and of course those rules applied to

00:36:56.360 - 00:37:20.689

the bankruptcy practice too but uh bankruptcy practice had some unique. Um, Situations in the trial of cases. Uh, that, uh A different from normal civil uh practice in the district court, so uh. He, he appointed this committee advisory committee on the bankruptcy rules. Prior to that,

00:37:20.810 - 00:37:49.020

the only guidance that was uh. There was focused on bankruptcy practice. Was, uh, the Supreme Court occasionally would be asked to uh to promulgate a general order I believe it was called these general orders were practice oriented and they were to guide practice but they weren't

00:37:49.020 - 00:38:11.550

in any kind of organizational order they just from time to time, uh, there's someone. Uh, in the bankruptcy process or judges or or practitioner or whatever or would see the need of a rule in in in this area and they would ask the Supreme Court, uh

00:38:11.550 - 00:38:30.270

to promulgate something maybe and it would be written and it would be uh approved by the Supreme Court that would be a general order. But actually there wasn't any publication source of that. I remember when I first came on the bench, uh, it was hard to

00:38:30.270 - 00:38:48.310

find a source of that that contained all of the general orders and I don't remember where they had an index anyway it was difficult to find those so there was a need for rules, and that committee uh was uh I had a chairman and the chairman

00:38:48.310 - 00:39:13.929

I believe was. Uh, as I was, um. Uh, Uh, judge from the Southern District of New York. AA, ASA Asa Herzog, H E R Z O G, an outstanding bankruptcy judge in the Southern District of New York. And um I guess he had practiced bankruptcy law

00:39:13.929 - 00:39:34.030

before he was appointed referee in bankruptcy and he had served a long, long time. And he uh was chairman of that rules committee. Uh, George Trester was on that rules committee. I've discussed that with him over the years, and they served for 13 years to before

00:39:34.030 - 00:39:54.189

they came up. They didn't have regular meetings, I think George told me, but, uh, they persisted for 13 years and, and, uh, uh, Frank Kennedy was the reporter all that time. And of course he was writing the rules and so forth and they probably had subcommittees

00:39:54.189 - 00:40:14.330

and so forth working on this and that. And then in 1971 they came out with those rules and and Frank Kennedy was as I said, the reporter. Well, also that, and then those rules became effective in 1973 and those rules, one of one of the uh

00:40:14.330 - 00:40:37.899

glaring uh advancements that that those rules made was one the uh the the uh promulgation of what we call the uh automatic stay. And uh another one was to name the bankruptcy judges. Bankruptcy judges that they call the bankruptcy court bankruptcy court of the district court

00:40:37.899 - 00:41:00.439

is still the same hierarchy, same statutory function, but they changed the name from referee to bankruptcy judge, and that was a giant step forward in image for the bankruptcy judges. Um The, I think I've maybe mentioned this before that when I first came on the bench,

00:41:01.010 - 00:41:19.489

um. The uh I had a a glaring shock to me, uh, as to the type of people that were willing to go to the bankruptcy court and represent somebody when they would admit to the court, this is the first time they've been in and I don't

00:41:19.489 - 00:41:36.780

know anything about bankruptcy judge. And uh you'd feel like asking them well you better go get some more malpractice insurance if you coming in here or practicing in the court that you don't know anything about it. But a lot of them did that and yet we

00:41:36.780 - 00:42:04.189

had fine fine bankruptcy lawyers in addition to that he had outstanding people that were bankruptcy lawyers but by and large most of the firms of the reputable, uh, respected the, uh, knowledgeable uh uh firms in each state and city. They didn't practice bankruptcy law. Just left

00:42:04.189 - 00:42:25.580

it to others and um. So then I found also that the bankruptcy judges were appointed of course by uh the district judges. I think maybe I told you that I was appointed right out of the blue. I didn't. Do I covered that in this discussion. And

00:42:25.649 - 00:42:43.959

uh I didn't have any ambition to be a uh. Referee in bankruptcy, it didn't sound like a judge to me you see I've been a law clerk to a district judge years before, but uh I didn't have any uh great respect for that but what, what,

00:42:44.030 - 00:43:07.149

what, uh. Uh, overwhelmed me in a way was the fact that the bar didn't consider these judges, referees in bankruptcy very highly. They knew that they were appointed by the district judge and therefore they're subject to uh on appeals from the bankrupts from the referee, uh,

00:43:07.159 - 00:43:22.840

appeals went to the district judges same same person or same entity that had appointed them. And so there was a feeling that they even that they favored uh rubber stamping those or there was a feeling that they could change it easy and so there were a

00:43:22.840 - 00:43:41.790

lot of people, a lot of appeals to district court just that I'll just I'll just file an appeal and and see if it rains on uh in my favor and uh. The uh easy to do, but it was a disregard of the court itself and a

00:43:41.790 - 00:44:02.300

disregard of that judge referee in bankruptcy. And so the referee in bankruptcy understood this and they weren't respected highly by the local bar. Uh, local, mainly the local bar didn't never come to that court. And they were holding court in some dingy little old uh room

00:44:02.790 - 00:44:26.179

uh so. Almost like a cellar or some in some places or like a closet that some told me in in in uh Atlanta at least and and uh Gainesville and district and the other dis uh other divisions Rome, Georgia and Noonan, Georgia we the bankruptcy judge

00:44:26.179 - 00:44:48.070

or referees met in the or had held court in the district court courtroom. But some places that didn't have any kind of facilities at all plus their offices were meager or not very uh judicial like. So there was a sort of an inferiority complex I decided

00:44:48.659 - 00:45:05.300

among bankruptcy judges will be referees in bankruptcy. They didn't have a high regard for themselves even because the lot of the district judges and circuit judges didn't have a high regard for them and the public didn't have a high regard so there was they traveled under

00:45:05.300 - 00:45:31.330

a constant um. Uh, image of something lesser than other judges and uh I felt that they all had a uh. Inferiority complex and when we started the bankruptcy code of the Reform Act, uh, the Congress was aware of that and they one of the main thrusts

00:45:31.659 - 00:45:55.689

of the Bankruptcy Reform Act was to try to elevate the stature and condition of the bankruptcy court and the bankruptcy judges. Um, can you talk about the transition of. Of the college of being a subsection of the American Bankruptcy Institute into its own autonomous organization. Well,

00:45:55.780 - 00:46:16.379

uh, that was another thing that uh that uh the uh we as organizers of the college were aware of. Of that and some of us more aware than some of the rest of us uh that uh we didn't want it to be uh viewed as a

00:46:16.379 - 00:46:40.159

subsidiary or adjunct of ABI just because ABI started it ABI loaned them some money that was later repaid. But uh in the first couple of years of the meetings of the college were on the same weekend uh uh after the adjournment of the uh American Bankruptcy

00:46:40.159 - 00:47:05.169

Institute ABI would have a meeting starting on Friday and Saturday or Thursday Friday or whatever. And then they would adjourn and then immediately they would have the college some of us I think maybe mainly me. Felt that this um. This uh condition. Uh, meetings almost simultaneously

00:47:05.169 - 00:47:33.800

with the ABI. And uh the announcements of the college being in the uh newsletter of the ABI. And that uh Who was uh uh was uh espousing or uh promoting or uh presenting the uh. The image That the college was uh subordinate or attached to or

00:47:33.800 - 00:47:57.389

somehow or another a subsidiary of ABI and some of us who certainly were uh had the early vision of the college felt that was. Really detrimental to the future of the college that the college should be. Not only financially able to stand on its own, which

00:47:57.719 - 00:48:23.300

they couldn't really do until they had enough members, uh, 3 or 4 at least 3 or 4, Uh, Cadre or of uh of uh. Fellow induction inductions and to get up a couple of 100 or 200. And then they could be stand on their own feet,

00:48:23.790 - 00:48:45.919

but uh so that was a sort of an issue too among some others in the college that we were too closely uh allied to ABI. Not really in function or not really an organization but in image and that uh that that ought to be severed and

00:48:46.129 - 00:49:08.790

distinctly made uh independent uh image uh as soon as possible and I think that it took, uh, you know, maybe 4 or 5 years uh for that severance to occur. But when it did, then the college uh became independent not only in fact but independent in

00:49:08.790 - 00:49:36.770

the image of the public. Are there any particular highlights, uh, that you recall of particular college meetings that you've attended in the past? Well, Oh another thing that was uh proposed at the first meeting of uh. The fellows Uh, after the first induction. Uh, that hotel

00:49:36.770 - 00:50:01.989

over at, uh, in Alexandria. Uh, actually that's, uh, I think that's, uh. Not Alexandria, maybe it's close to Alexandria it may be Arlington. But um One thing that was pointed out at that time was that ultimately the college ought to have a uh a scholar in

00:50:01.989 - 00:50:27.870

residence. And um but that takes money of course. And so uh but very soon uh the college did have somebody volunteer uh to be well actually somebody we wanted. Somebody asked him, would you be the scholar in residence and Leon Foreman and in Philadelphia. Uh, in

00:50:27.870 - 00:50:57.629

this, uh, and the. Blank Rome or what's a firm, uh, uh, a nationally elite firm, uh, various, uh, maybe several generations old and, and, uh, a very, uh, high reputation among the general bar of the nation. Uh, and Leon Foreman had been a. Uh, trustee and

00:50:57.629 - 00:51:22.209

a lawyer in the bankruptcy, uh, arena for a long time. And was highly respected and I think that um. Uh, he's agreed to be our first, uh. A scholar in residence and incidentally wouldn't take any money. I think we established that we were gonna pay somebody

00:51:22.469 - 00:51:44.040

uh some money like $25,000 a year. But uh and his duties weren't full time of course they were to but to plan programs and to uh plan uh responses to Congress when Congress uh suggested they'd like to have somebody present uh a testimony in a certain

00:51:44.409 - 00:52:10.699

uh uh uh fact pattern or pardon me, subject matter pattern and uh. They, uh, anyway, he served as a uh. A scholar in residence and I think uh. It's it would should be generally accepted that he set a high standard, a high bar for future, uh,

00:52:11.199 - 00:52:42.040

scholars and residents of the American I mean American College of Bankruptcy. He, he served with distinction incidentally, he was also honored as the Distinguished Service award of the college. Let's pause for just a moment. One final question about the college um. Do you think the college

00:52:42.040 - 00:53:15.989

has developed as the founders anticipated? Well, Certainly from my standpoint as Uh The conceiver of the original idea I think. And my thoughts over the 34 years that we were writing the treaties. And was was was discussing the need of uh. Membership organization like ABI and

00:53:15.989 - 00:53:48.070

the need for a college. That the college Has I think maybe exceeded everything that I've ever, uh, it's done it's certainly done everything that I. Uh, recommended and anticipated. And I think that we're into. Maybe things that uh. Uh, that I didn't anticipate. But I always

00:53:48.070 - 00:54:25.419

said that. That these people who conceive something like this can't ever. Conceive of in what directions that organization will take and that my. Oh my. A dream and my uh. Um Anticipation of the function of the college. Both for and honoring the uh. The fellows. But

00:54:25.419 - 00:54:49.159

for the fellows as an organization to perform services to the bankruptcy uh environment. And the bankruptcy process and prove it. Uh, that the these type of people. That we're going to Uh, attract to the college I felt. Are the type of people that are the real

00:54:49.159 - 00:55:15.429

leaders of their communities. And that collectively these Leaders in a group. Uh, focusing on the same needs and desires of of the organization will come up with ideas and with functions and with uh other dreams that uh will be fulfilled uh in a much better fashion

00:55:15.840 - 00:55:39.780

than the just a few people who were considering uh to launch uh this type of organization. So I think that it has uh not only fulfilled my dreams. Uh, and our dreams of others who were involved with me, uh, that, uh, but, uh. Has uh Uh,

00:55:39.830 - 00:56:07.040

exceeded. In some respects, but I knew the leaders. For instance, I knew the leaders of this organization I wouldn't put up with. Um Individuals who uh. Uh, might be in the organization for self-aggrandizement or something or self, uh, respect, pardon me, uh, or notoriety, uh, another.

00:56:08.020 - 00:56:30.229

Uh, another, uh. A paragraph or whatever on their resume that that that that type of thing wouldn't be condoned uh by the uh membership of this college because of this criteria in the election of those type of people. And uh I just think in an organization

00:56:30.229 - 00:56:52.689

like this that if some if the college does uh. Elect uh as a fellow somebody who has a a self promotion idea for that that will be squelched that won't be put up with long because these are leaders of leaders. And uh many of these uh.

00:56:54.419 - 00:57:18.489

Many of these members of the college are really legends in their areas of the practice of of law they're real icons of uh of the uh. A bankruptcy practice. And so I think put together. Uh, that those people, uh, always assured me in my mind of

00:57:18.489 - 00:57:38.350

the future that uh they would uh make this organization, uh, better than any of us ever thought. Well, I wanted to switch gears and. I was wondering if you could talk to me a little bit more about uh the institutes that you've been hosting for over

00:57:38.350 - 00:57:57.800

20 years and I know that you were telling me that the treatise the treatise that you're working on really laid the groundwork for those institutes. Well, yes, they did um. While we were, I've been very lucky. I'm very fortunate in uh. The selection of those contributing

00:57:57.800 - 00:58:25.879

editors on the treaties. Uh, we haven't, uh. We, we, we, uh, haven't had uh. Um, Any what you'd call bad apples we've had a couple of people we let go because uh they lectured on something that we thought was um. Uh, was promoting, uh, not, uh,

00:58:26.310 - 00:58:49.790

the highest ethics, as to representing debtors, and we just didn't want lectures like that and, uh, but other than that, the, the contributing editors that are recruited turned out to be great. Uh, lectures when I started the, the seminars. And then, uh, maybe this gives me

00:58:49.790 - 00:59:09.469

an opportunity here to uh say something about how we, uh. Uh, how we wrote the treatise when the Callahan and company asked me to do this, uh, treatise, I said that we couldn't do it unless I had contributing editors. They allowed that and then, uh, I

00:59:09.469 - 00:59:31.699

started recruiting the recruit the, uh, the contributing editors to help me write the treatise. And they, they said they wanted 5 or 6 volumes and uh that uh uh this was in well immediately the month after the enactment of the Reform Act and where they came

00:59:31.699 - 00:59:47.010

to me I said why didn't you come earlier? Well, we said we didn't know whether it was gonna be enacted and of course that's true and uh. I said, well, uh, no one person can can write a treatise like this, even Frank Frank Kennedy, even Frank

00:59:47.010 - 01:00:06.219

Kennedy and Vern Countryman, uh, together would have a difficult time writing, uh, several volumes, uh, and that I couldn't certainly I couldn't do it as a, uh, as an intellect and I didn't have the knowledge to do it. Second, I was a busy bankruptcy judge. uh

01:00:06.219 - 01:00:22.639

Atlanta is a busy, uh, uh, court. We're hyper busy as a matter of fact in Atlanta as some of the other courts around the country are, and, uh, I, uh, I couldn't take the time to do that. This was gonna have to be done at at

01:00:22.639 - 01:00:41.469

uh slack time of or not uh there's, uh, no such thing as slack time I guess but uh that was gonna have to do it extra curri extra extra curricular of of the judgeship and I couldn't do it and then uh. I couldn't write a treatise

01:00:41.469 - 01:01:05.340

like this uh with uh. Uh, that would, that would infringe upon my time that I should be devoting to the, the judgeship. And so I needed help And besides two minds are generally better than 1. And so I did recruit these these people then we uh

01:01:06.070 - 01:01:31.649

started writing that after the first year uh we started uh we organized the treaties and we uh assigned on that's probably not the word, uh individuals accepted responsibility for the writing of a certain subject and uh they uh would uh. Uh Would uh Submit those manuscripts

01:01:31.649 - 01:01:49.560

to me and we would uh then review those. I'd send them out to 3 other people and they would review them. And then we would uh get them ready for the uh the uh. Publication I think I told you I started sending to my son. Uh,

01:01:49.610 - 01:02:06.030

who was in Nashville practicing law. Well, I guess he was in law school most of that time. And uh he uh would call me back and say well this this is good daddy I think I could even understand this and but but then I was I

01:02:06.040 - 01:02:23.820

I held back or I held back I I assumed responsibility for writing about 30% of it, which really was too much as it turned out, uh, because I, I almost had nervous breakdown in the last few months trying to finish my role in fact had to.

01:02:24.270 - 01:02:47.689

Had to get Jonathan Landers and maybe somebody else to take on another chore uh that I thought I would be able to write. And um But my wife Adelaide, uh Norton, Adelaide Gregory Norton. We might got married uh 2 weeks after I hit the United States

01:02:47.689 - 01:03:07.590

after being uh overseas 2 years and been in the service of 4.5 years. That we married and then I started school and then uh finished school and uh then she always had a job but then when I was writing this treatise we were living here in

01:03:07.590 - 01:03:29.340

Gainesville and we owned our own house and uh that uh she we had a a DN is a split level and the den is on the ground level and uh she had a typewriter and she typed every word. Of this uh uh treatise. And uh I'm

01:03:29.340 - 01:03:50.830

a bad person of of revising and revising reading and reading and then next week read it over again and have a thought and would put it in there and she would retype it. And it was one of these selector ball ball uh IBM selector typewriter and

01:03:50.830 - 01:04:14.040

she typed that for and um. So technically she ought to no more bankruptcy than any of us because she did it uh 6 or 7 times some of those chapters. And then we had uh. The, uh, in 1982 when I uh I finished the first three

01:04:14.040 - 01:04:34.239

volumes and then in 1983 the next three volumes of the treaties, uh we started ABI. And then we uh had a and I think I've covered this before that we had a a fellow in Washington DC that sent out our first mailing of memberships and we

01:04:34.239 - 01:04:54.169

got that in the fall of 1982 uh during the uh during the period when the Chief Justice was talking about the emergency rule and we all feared that emergency rule we thought it was a good time to start the treaties and start the. Uh, ABI And

01:04:54.169 - 01:05:16.389

so we did Well then we didn't have any meetings of the ABI until we decided January, uh, after the emergency rule had been enacted in the fall of December of uh of 1982 we decided to have a national meeting in Washington DC. It was January 6th

01:05:16.389 - 01:05:43.370

of 1983. Have I covered this before? Uh, well, and at that meeting, uh, we had about. Senator, uh, Deaconcini had agreed to be, uh, uh, uh, an honorary chairman of ABI. He was brought in by a fellow that worked for him. Uh, Bob Fiedler, Robert Fiedler,

01:05:43.620 - 01:06:09.260

Robert Fiedler had worked with uh. Uh, With uh Uh Harry Dixon, uh, as a staff member of the Senate Judiciary Committee, they were big friends and all through these years they were dear, dear friends or close friends, and, uh, he got Senator Diaconinney after we formed

01:06:09.260 - 01:06:30.929

ABI to be a vice chair or well be a honorary chairman. And so he got a room for us for a hearing in Washington DC in the Senate. It was a big, big room, uh, 100 by 100 I guess feet, uh, at least 75 by 75,

01:06:31.379 - 01:06:53.100

and, uh, we, that room was full of, of people when we got there on the uh on the uh. Morning of January 6th, the previous night we had met at the hotel that is we, meaning the president of ABI, the vice president of ABI. The uh

01:06:53.399 - 01:07:14.270

directors of ABM. Um Then uh We planned the next day they got hearing. We didn't know how many people would come, come. We'd advertised it that anybody could come and express their views as to the emergency rule and as to, uh, Article 3 court or nonau

01:07:14.270 - 01:07:35.620

3 court. That was the subject matter. And uh So then the next morning these people arrived and Senator Deaconcini the previous night said I can't be. I can't be uh There all day I, I planned to, I got a committee meeting, uh, starting about 10 o'clock.

01:07:36.050 - 01:07:52.530

We've got this thing starting at 10 o'clock and I got to go to that committee meeting and Judge Norton, I want you to uh preside and I said, Well, I think that it's a Senate room. It's a, uh, uh, Senate, uh, so you're providing it for

01:07:52.530 - 01:08:12.040

us. You're our vice chair you're our honorary chairman. I wish you could do it well, I'll start it, but I can't be there all the time and Judge, I want you to, uh, preside and everybody else, uh, said that they when confronted with this, I saw

01:08:12.040 - 01:08:28.938

him talking over in the corner about 3 of them 4 came over and said, you got, you gotta preside. So I presided after him that morning. And we and I presided without lunch. I don't think we had lunch till about 4 o'clock that afternoon and there

01:08:28.938 - 01:08:55.699

were probably 90 or so, uh, people that testified or pardon me, uh. Uh, Made speeches, uh, more marks. And they could make remarks pro our kind of the. But 90 9% of them were against the emergency rule and were for the Article 3 court. Some of

01:08:55.699 - 01:09:12.240

them expressed, I don't think the Supreme Court will ever allow or the Congress will ever allow an Article 3 court uh for bankruptcy, but, uh, that's what it ought to be and it, uh, constitutionally it ought to be. But there was one group that voted against

01:09:12.240 - 01:09:36.729

it, testified against it, and it was the so-called ad hoc ad hoc committee of the judicial conference of the United States. There were 3 judges on that district judge and circuit judges on that committee appointed by the Chief Justice, uh, Warren Burger. And they had testified

01:09:36.729 - 01:09:59.620

in the Senate in uh the spring of 1978 against the Article 3 provision and they were there at this hearing uh speaking against it too. But that was the only group that really was against uh the Article 3 group. Then, uh, from then on we started

01:09:59.620 - 01:10:18.589

having meetings quarterly of the, uh, executive committee which were all of the officers and a couple of other people. Uh, George Payne was an officer, but he was a member. Judge, uh, Schwartzberg was not an officer. Judge Pascade down and they were all on the executive

01:10:18.589 - 01:10:40.430

committee, however. And uh so uh. Oh, another fellow that was on the exec committee was a fellow named uh. Um, Newell Blair, B L A I R N E W A L L Newell Blair B L A I and he was the publisher of bankruptcy court

01:10:40.430 - 01:11:08.120

decisions which was uh under his corporation called CRR Publishing Company and that was a corporation called Corporation Reorganization Reporter and he started that uh that uh business of printing, uh. Uh, testimony, uh, and reports of the central, uh, railroad of the New York Central Railroad bankruptcy

01:11:08.430 - 01:11:25.220

that went on for a year or two and he started this, uh, of the every morning and testimony and so forth he would print it and it'd be available for lawyers, uh, that afternoon. And that was what CRR did. Then after that, the code, the uh,

01:11:25.229 - 01:11:56.689

the rules, bankruptcy rules were promulgated. He decided to, uh, get into the bankruptcy of trial field and publish decisions and so he started the bankruptcy court decision BCD that was the first. The first Uh, publication. Of decisions of bankruptcy judges. They would appoint the uh they

01:11:56.689 - 01:12:21.120

would uh submit their opinions and he would uh publish them uh selectively published what he thought was the best and um. Prior to that, the commerce clearinghouse, uh, and maybe Apprentice Hall loose leaf had a publication, but there were not many of the bankruptcy judges' opinions.

01:12:21.160 - 01:12:48.520

They were district court opinions, uh, and so they wouldn't, wasn't really, uh, what you call a full scale, uh, a reporting service like BCD. And it wasn't until the A year or so later. That um West Publishing Company started publishing BR bankruptcy reporter. And um That

01:12:48.520 - 01:13:16.000

that they publish all of the uh opinions that are submitted by judges to the uh reporter. So Mr. Blair at the conclusion of that time. Meeting his his officers were over in Alexandria. And he had this staff, big staff. Uh, of his publication. Thing it was

01:13:16.000 - 01:13:34.640

done on an offset process. He um came to me and said, you know. Uh, I, uh. I would like to do seminars, but I don't know how to do it. Now I think you know how to do it. And I would like to make a partnership

01:13:34.640 - 01:14:01.089

with you, a joint venture of us putting out bankruptcy. Uh seminars and around the country. And I will do the administration. Uh, in my offices, I got all the equipment. I got the mailing list we can get easy. uh, I can uh. Um, Print anything announcements

01:14:01.089 - 01:14:19.129

we want and uh print any advertising things we need to do of the of the seminars but you get the program. You uh you know the judges and you know the speakers you know the people around the country better than I do. And uh I would

01:14:19.129 - 01:14:42.479

uh. I like to have you therefore select the subjects. And Mr. Blair was, this was in January '83, the same day of the uh January 6th meeting of ABI and, and as I said, he was on our board and he had, he had, he had known

01:14:42.479 - 01:15:02.299

me uh uh more than slightly uh while I was judging the 70s during the, uh, in fact, he had a reporting service of the of the uh. Uh, hearings and so forth of the, uh, Reform Act, both the House and Senate. And he we go to

01:15:02.299 - 01:15:19.500

the National Conference of Bankruptcy Judges and he, he knew me and he would ask me, he said, I don't know these other judges. I wonder if you would get a dinner and I'd like 8 people so you get about 3 other couples and uh let's have

01:15:19.500 - 01:15:37.609

a dinner. I'll host the dinner and I would do that every year. Uh, for some of my judge friends, so well actually there were generally the people on the contributing editors. But uh no that wasn't that wasn't them no no there it was before the start

01:15:37.609 - 01:15:56.009

of day but anyway they were friends and we would, he would then host an uh evening dinner at these nice places where the national conference of bankruptcy judges meet so I knew him that way. But so then after this meeting or hearing. Uh, he posted me

01:15:56.379 - 01:16:16.029

and we might have gone out to dinner. I don't know, and he brought about to have the idea of seminars. And that developed into something we call a joint venture and a a partnership of we we had it written out a partnership. That uh which of

01:16:16.029 - 01:16:35.020

us put up $5000 I believe and we didn't lose it. That was some of the mailing and administration. And uh we start I I picked out the places I told him that if I had seminars I'd like to I like to hold them in places that

01:16:35.020 - 01:16:52.069

I myself I like to go every year I like to hold them in places that the public would like to go every year. Uh, and I said one is Jackson Hole, Wyoming, and one is San Francisco. I think everybody likes to go to San Francisco, uh,

01:16:52.279 - 01:17:15.560

in perpetuity. And I says, and we'll find other places. And uh uh Phoenix for instance so we did and that's how we started uh the seminars. And after about 5 years. Uh, he, I, I did some administration, but, uh, with my family and we all went

01:17:15.560 - 01:17:43.080

to these seminars. My son too, uh, Bill, by that time he graduated from, uh, Vanderbilt Law School and was practicing bankruptcy law and was also um. Uh, helping in the upkeep of the treaties. Uh, and, um But um Uh, the seminars. Uh, about 5 years or

01:17:43.080 - 01:17:58.279

4 years after he was after we started the seminars, he came to me and said. I'm gonna sell my business um I got it on the market and I'm gonna try to sell it and when I do I don't think that the whoever buys it it'd

01:17:58.279 - 01:18:15.689

be another book publisher. They probably won't don't want to be in this seminar business and it may be that they would be somebody you wouldn't want to be partnered with so I think that the feasible or the the prudent thing for us to do is for

01:18:15.689 - 01:18:35.220

uh. Us to uh you to take over the seminar management and move it to the Gainesville or Atlanta where you are and you uh can uh. Take over all of that and so we did. I took my former secretary in the law firm and we went

01:18:35.220 - 01:18:57.000

to and then my my daughter Martha who's still involved in our seminars we took her, they went to. Washington DC, Alexandria and met a couple of days with his staff. He had a fine staff and a fine executive secretary and the fine controller woman. And uh

01:18:57.979 - 01:19:25.129

We, we just were friends over there he's funny thing, one thing I think that made him. Um, Uh, friendly to me. He told me one time that before they Before they uh Bankruptcy Reform Act came into effect and was um. That uh the opinions. That came

01:19:25.129 - 01:19:53.859

to him from judges. Uh, we Um, That about 85% of them. Where about 3 or 4 judges. And I said, who's those judges? He says, well, you and Judge Pasca and Judge Joe Lee. Are the ones that send more opinions than anybody else says uh that

01:19:53.859 - 01:20:14.169

you all uh so the others are just ad hoc and uh but you all send me everything you got and and you apparently write a lot of uh stuff that we publish. He said after The bankruptcy code came into effect that he started getting uh just

01:20:14.169 - 01:20:34.540

the reverse he started getting uh uh. Opinions from judges he'd never heard of. And he used to laugh and said, but that's the I attribute that to the fact that y'all now have law clerks. You didn't have law clerks before, so you and Joe Lee and

01:20:34.770 - 01:20:54.660

and Pasca were writing your own stuff. And I don't know whether all that's the truth, but that's what he used to allege to people. How do you think the Norton Institutes on Bankruptcy have changed or evolved since the beginning? Well, one thing I, I decided, I

01:20:54.660 - 01:21:15.660

told him that I was gonna use this faculty. Uh, the contributing editors of the treaties and we're gonna repeat those people every year at these 3 or 4 seminars we were having, we've had uh actually seminars in places that we now closed and we're down to

01:21:15.810 - 01:21:36.370

3 now that we perpetually uh uh uh holding seminars. But I said I'm gonna have as my primary speakers. Uh, the people who helped me write the treaties and they're gonna be speaking on subjects that they themselves are writing on for the treaties, and I think

01:21:36.370 - 01:22:03.259

that'll have an appeal to the public, to lawyers and uh they're that's that will be my uh compensation or my reward to those contributing editors uh to speak all lawyers like to speak around. Uh strange places or uh non-residential, not not places beyond their residence. Because

01:22:03.259 - 01:22:24.319

he gets their name forward to the public and they, they get hired as as uh as future lawyers to somebody that in the audience. And so uh Uh, not that any of my. Uh speakers needed the business but anyway they liked to speak. And the two

01:22:24.319 - 01:22:42.560

judges I had like to speak and they like to speak at this type of seminars because they're the same people they're working with uh as contributing editors on the treaties and these people are on the that are that are speaking we're meeting like 2-3 times a

01:22:42.560 - 01:23:05.540

year together and uh they're meeting with each other and we're discussing the treatise itself. So after every seminar we learn things we, we also the, the faculty meet at least one evening, uh, various times during the the day to discuss various things that occurred to one

01:23:05.540 - 01:23:27.180

of the contributing editors. What we found is that these contributing editors. Of the Norton bankruptcy law and practice and there some of the writers of of of our annual survey bankruptcy law and our uh monthly adviser Norton bankruptcy law adviser, those people are very concerned about

01:23:27.180 - 01:23:52.450

the quality. Of the publication they put there. Uh, ridings too. And uh they are very paternalistic toward this treatise, and they want this treatise to be uh as excellent and as superior as I do as my son does it they, they really they own it. And

01:23:52.459 - 01:24:12.160

they have a very strong affiliation toward its uh it's uh excellent quality and it's academicness and it's the experience we put in. And so I, I have a phone call sometime from them about something and it's, it's, it's the urging we ought to do this and

01:24:12.160 - 01:24:31.979

we ought to do that and next time we do such and such, let's let's start this so those kind of people have been advising me all the time about how to improve uh the treaties because they themselves are so uh committed. to the excellence of this

01:24:31.979 - 01:24:57.339

publication. And um So when we started these seminars they gave us an opportunity to meet frequently together and uh I have found that meeting like that are so much better than a telephone call or to expect that some of those somebody that's associated with you to

01:24:57.339 - 01:25:20.250

give you a call and give you advice. But meeting together. Uh, lunch and in the afternoons or dinner that, uh, when you're talking that, uh, suggestions come more readily and more sincerely, well, I don't say sincerely, but a more uh more readily I think than they

01:25:20.250 - 01:25:40.979

do by telephone call or by uh sitting at your offices at home. And so I think that the treatise has improved. Uh, every quarter, uh, since we have been publishing it because of some improvement that we learned that we ought to start, uh, that that occurs

01:25:40.979 - 01:26:00.430

to us in the, uh. In the seminars we also at these seminars have uh you know 100 to 200 people or 300 and nowadays we don't have as many as we used to have but we have a lot of people there that, um. Uh, both that

01:26:00.430 - 01:26:18.109

talk to the those those registrants talk to the faculty. And those regists recognize and they tell us all the time that our faculty is so approachable that is so willing to talk to them after the lectures and in the afternoons or whatever when they they see

01:26:18.109 - 01:26:35.520

them they say that our people are so approachable whereas the normal seminar in the world. You go into some big town. They hold them in some big metropolitan area and they have uh 6 people and they speak twice that's 12 hours or maybe they're trying to

01:26:35.520 - 01:26:56.709

get 14 hours and then they leave, go back home they speak and go back home. They don't mill around and talk to the registrants like they do at our seminars and the faculty likes that with the faculties together more. They they become a club sorter or

01:26:56.709 - 01:27:16.979

uh uh well actually what our faculty calls it is extended family of the Nortons that uh they have become our best friends in life uh the uh the people who write for us and that we're working in concert with each other on a subject or a

01:27:16.979 - 01:27:44.120

project that, uh, we're all are very much concerned about its quality. And um So, um The suggestions that the registrants give to the faculty or sometimes to me or Bill. My son, they uh. They they those feed themselves back into uh the treatise in just a

01:27:44.120 - 01:28:11.020

few weeks. The other thing we found is that the. Um These seminars, you, you got time to reach over there and get that most recent, uh. Publication of the this is the. Um, these are the lectures that were passed out to the registrants. Uh, at the

01:28:11.020 - 01:28:30.540

most recent seminar at Jackson Hole. I don't know how many pages. But there's generally about 2000 pages. Uh, of stuff like this that are lectures, some of them only 20 pages, some of them 40 or 50 pages, and some of the registrants call them mini treatises,

01:28:30.790 - 01:28:46.359

so we take those back home. Judges tell us that they take those back home and, and they, uh, tell their law clerks later that look uh so and so last year I attended and that subject is covered here read there first. And so they do these

01:28:46.410 - 01:29:15.100

these become uh retained uh. Research materials. Uh, by those registrants and uh some people come. Uh, repeatedly to our seminars, uh, uh, Jackson Hole and it at Las Vegas and, and Jack and San Francisco and at Phoenix they come up and tell me, you know, this

01:29:15.100 - 01:29:31.540

is the, uh, this is the 10th straight one I've attended or I've attended 15 or they'll anyway they'll tell me how many they've attended and then they'll say or they'll say, you know, I hadn't been here in 2 years, but previously 5 years I've been something.

01:29:32.020 - 01:29:52.290

Uh, lately, but I'm gonna start coming back all the time, so we have a lot of repeats. And uh the faculty themselves get friendly with the pardon me. The register themselves by coming so much yet to be friendly with the faculty and they feel uh some

01:29:52.290 - 01:30:16.740

kind of an affiliation. Uh, to, uh, our faculty of from their contact at these seminars and the seminars materials this materials here. I will be listening and uh to some of the lectures. I do not lecture anymore at these seminars because I found out. That uh

01:30:17.500 - 01:30:35.490

If I say something. And somebody in the audience has just had research on that and they disagree with it. Then they think that I'm wrong on that subject and if I'm wrong on that subject then maybe the treatise is wrong on many other subjects now they

01:30:35.490 - 01:30:54.689

don't feel that way about the other lectures but they do feel that way about the name, uh, Norton on the treaties and so I decided I better quit lecturing because no matter what you say there's somebody out there that may take it differently or and actually

01:30:54.689 - 01:31:13.419

the. The audience that we have, uh, all of our faculty realized that. There are people in that audience are just as smart as we think we are, and they may be just as knowledgeable about what's being lectured as we are because maybe 6 months ago or

01:31:13.419 - 01:31:32.500

currently uh they have a subject uh that they're litigating on that subject that made them learn a lot about that and so you better watch what you're saying at these uh seminars that we have we call them advanced uh bankruptcy seminars. And we say you are

01:31:32.500 - 01:31:51.140

expected to uh to uh be a uh full time practitioner in bankruptcy law or not a beginner or neophyte in bankruptcy. It might this might be above you we don't say above your head, but we just say that these are advanced and, and you may uh

01:31:51.140 - 01:32:09.450

like them a lot of people do come and say that yes, I'm, I'm new in bankruptcy, but I feel like that I understand and I can understand. Uh, you know, 70 or 80% of everything you all have been giving me. Um, So what we found out

01:32:09.450 - 01:32:32.009

is that these these lectures that are prepared just in the last few weeks for this seminar, each seminar different you see. And uh The uh Is better Then that subject covered. In the treaties I say I don't say better but has some points in there that

01:32:32.009 - 01:32:52.890

are not in the treaties because they're newly uh developed thoughts and so we uh the people who are lecturing are uh. Are also writing for the treaties and so we urge them now look if there's anything discussed at this seminar that you wrote in this uh

01:32:52.890 - 01:33:15.790

this manuscript that's that's uh expansive uh and uh new for the treatise materials let's put it in the treaties and so we do so the the the the uh. The lectures of the. Of that subject will in the next, uh, month or so send us a

01:33:15.790 - 01:33:37.540

manage they'll take their chapter and they'll make some changes and feed into it these uh new things that developed, uh. Uh, at that seminar, so each one of the seminars has some, uh, possibility or probability of helping us improve the treaties either by conversations with the

01:33:37.540 - 01:34:06.589

faculty or by the written materials. As you reflect on your career, are there, is there one or any number of personal achievements of which you are particularly proud? It's always a difficult question, but. Well, um, Uh, I guess I'm proud of the fact that my son.

01:34:08.009 - 01:34:29.879

Decided to be a lawyer. And decide to be a bankruptcy lawyer because now he's taken over the whole treatise and he's taking over the whole writing and he's he's the he's now the successor author. With the contract with the publisher? He um uh started working for

01:34:29.879 - 01:34:51.120

the treatise immediately after graduating from law school. And um Immediately I started talking to a fellow named Jerry Pritz, P R I T Z, who was the editor assigned to us of Callahan and Company. I said now he's going to be uh working with us on

01:34:51.129 - 01:35:11.399

on the treaties and I would like to have him become the uh. Successor, um. Author when I die and I could die the day after tomorrow or tomorrow and I just, I'd like to see all of this work that I've done, uh, go to somebody in

01:35:11.399 - 01:35:28.240

my family that's capable of carrying it on. And they said, uh, I talked to the president, talked to Prince, they both said, well, he's just out of law school. Uh, yes, he's been 4 years in the Navy and yes he's had a college education and a

01:35:28.240 - 01:35:49.109

law school education and yes he was uh editor of his law review at uh Vanderbilt but uh he's still young and and we just don't feel uncomfortable uh naming him the, the, uh. Uh, successor, uh, author now it could be if you were to die that

01:35:49.109 - 01:36:05.310

he'd be the first one we look at and we decide what to do, but we might have some other, uh, uh, some other, uh, avenue or some other alternative. So I kept renewing that every year and they, they give me that same response after so about

01:36:05.310 - 01:36:28.839

but Bill was constantly dealing with them. So after about 3 years, maybe 4. They came to me and they said, you know. Uh, we're we're willing to name him the um. The uh successor author. And then if, if you die that he immediately takes on the

01:36:28.839 - 01:36:47.200

production of this treatise. We have found that uh. We're very impressed with with your son and I think he's a worthy would be a worthy successor as you know we we the other day we were talking. That he's not, he's not just a chip off the

01:36:47.200 - 01:37:08.350

old block. Says you know he may be a block himself. So said So he became the successor uh author over those years and now he's all of these seminars he's been in charge of for now several years. He's in every one of the seminars plus his

01:37:08.350 - 01:37:24.160

wife is there at the registration desk and my wife is there at the registration desk and my daughter is there as much as they can of course they've been raising children and all that, but we also have had their children come at Park City, Utah. Their

01:37:24.160 - 01:37:40.379

children came when, uh, from 2 years old on, and they started skiing at Park City at 2 and 3 and 4 years old, and they're really good now, and they all graduated from college and one's in. Afghanistan now and one has just finished the army and

01:37:40.379 - 01:38:02.729

uh the uh. Uh, The Iraq he's been twice to Iraq so they're now older boys and but they've been going to these seminars for years and hopefully one of them will be uh going to law and to, uh, and Bill can then start arguing with the

01:38:02.729 - 01:38:31.200

publisher about them being successor. Because it's a shame that uh. All this work that's going into the production of my publications. Or just now. Well, I don't arriving at a. Financial Status That is really attractive. Uh, for a while it wasn't, uh, you know, certainly the

01:38:31.200 - 01:38:57.899

first year or two the sales weren't all that much. That's one reason I resigned from. Bankruptcy judge uh after. Let's see 80 86, the treatise was then about 3 or 4 years old. But the revenues, but, and I wasn't being accused. I was neglecting my judicial

01:38:57.899 - 01:39:18.310

work and I was not uh neglecting my judicial work as proved by some surveys that were made by the chief judge of the 11th Circuit. Somebody complained about me. And they did a survey and found out that that uh the Judge Pasca in Tampa, Judge Norton

01:39:18.310 - 01:39:41.089

in Atlanta uh were the leading uh production of both uh completed cases and uh completed litigations and and not only that, we, we led by 30 or 40% of all the other judges in the 11th Circuit. So that quieted any kind of criticism that might have

01:39:41.089 - 01:39:59.290

been toward me, but it's easy to try to, uh, criticize somebody that's doing a big old treatise you you just almost assume that they're neglecting their judicial work so this survey was done and I was found to be, uh, not neglecting my work because I was

01:39:59.290 - 01:40:24.270

leading, uh, the work with Judge Pasca and one of the judge, uh, Judge Robinson in my court. And uh But um Bill of Well, I, I digress there a little what I was talking about, yeah, so Bill was taken over and um. And he has been

01:40:24.270 - 01:40:48.899

all these years taking over more and more of the work and uh he is now considered a uh. An outstanding bankruptcy lawyer in Tennessee and all over, he has cases and uh debtor cases that come from Dallas, Texas, from Houston, San Diego, or, or, you know,

01:40:49.240 - 01:41:08.970

Mobile, New Orleans all over. And maybe uh I don't know whether I ought to tell something like this, but uh uh 2 or 3 years ago or several years 5 or 6 years ago. Uh, Bill and I were somewhere together and he says something, something, uh,

01:41:08.979 - 01:41:28.910

humorous happened, uh, this past week he said I have this client who has multiple uh manufacturing locations around the country and uh we're trying to reorganize him under a Chapter 11 and uh we uh. I've I've been to San Diego together and we've been to Phoenix

01:41:28.910 - 01:41:47.950

together. We've closed some of those warehouses and uh we were having lunch, but not dinner one night in New Orleans because he has a facility down there and so he said uh he just in the middle of the meal said, you know, Bill. Uh, this, this

01:41:47.950 - 01:42:05.029

case is going real good and I'm real pleased over your performance as my lawyer. I think it's going good and I think we're going to succeeded in reorganizing and I'll get out of the bankruptcy court and I'll pay all my debts and uh I think that's

01:42:05.029 - 01:42:25.100

uh uh so I think we're doing a good job. But you know Bill, when I first met you I thought you'd be a much older man. So I said, well send me some of your money. But I'm glad to see that he is uh he is

01:42:25.100 - 01:42:47.299

uh on his own and he, he was voted, uh, the one of the two best lawyers, bankruptcy lawyers in, in, uh, Tennessee several years ago. He's been honored with other uh other uh official recognition uh at the bar and. So forth and he's active in the

01:42:47.299 - 01:43:09.729

American Bar Association. He's been a committee chair in the American Bar Association. And so he on his own has has uh really excelled uh anything I ever did in a lot of ways. Um, and, um, trying to get back now to what you just, uh, question

01:43:10.140 - 01:43:31.060

is when he was in college. He oh no and and. When he was in law school, no, when he was in high school. Uh, we were going around the colleges all over the country. Uh, every trip we would make, we'd go by and see the college

01:43:31.060 - 01:43:45.990

we'd go by Harvard, we go by Yale, we'd go go, we'd go by, uh, Columbia, we'd go by University of Pennsylvania, and we go by University of Virginia and we go by all of these places we'd go by and see the campus. This was before he

01:43:45.990 - 01:44:04.799

was even in high school and then all in high school we did this and then, uh, we, uh, went to it was about a junior. In high school and we went to uh Nashville, Tennessee for some kind of a meeting and uh he and he he

01:44:05.049 - 01:44:26.790

accompanied us and he went out that night on Thursday night or something to uh. Uh, with some students and with some faculty guides, um, and so he came back that night about midnight. They'd been out 12:30 and they had enjoyed he came and is enthused that

01:44:26.790 - 01:44:43.000

he was going to, uh, go to Vanderbilt. This is it. I've now found it. And so Um, and so I'm I said they got a good law school too and I'll go to the law school, so my wife said, you know. Bill, I, I don't, I

01:44:43.000 - 01:44:58.149

don't think you ought to be making up your mind about practicing law right now, uh, you know, being a doctor wouldn't be bad. And he said, you know, mother. You constantly are trying to get me to be a doctor and to be a lawyer, she said,

01:44:58.200 - 01:45:14.200

well, uh, I, I don't want anybody to have to work as hard as your daddy has had to work over the years. Your daddy has just, uh, burned the candle at both ends his whole life in practice of law, and, uh, I don't think that um

01:45:14.200 - 01:45:32.279

I think there might be other professions just as good, uh, that you wouldn't have to work quite that much. And uh And it says and doctors get to serve people they get to help people and so. And he came back with this statement. He said, well,

01:45:32.399 - 01:45:55.549

mother, lawyers get to help people too. Says Daddy says daddy saved these uh he saved this cemetery that was alleged to be a uh a uh uh a black some people came to town and we're gonna establish a black perpetual care cemetery and it turned out

01:45:55.549 - 01:46:13.459

to be a fraud and that they were getting people to sign notes to buy. Uh, cemetery plots and this lady came to me and wanted me to represent her and her maid and I said I, I can't take on a case like that. And finally, uh,

01:46:13.479 - 01:46:34.250

I said they said well would you go to the finance company and uh. Uh, so I said, well, yeah, I'll do that just one thing, but I can't take this case. Uh, several 100 people in the, uh, the segregated neighborhood had been had been accused of

01:46:34.250 - 01:46:55.870

signing notes and they didn't, they said they thought they signed a petition to uh. Uh for this company to come into town and and start a perpetual care cemetery, they bought some land out here they put, uh, they put, uh, white sand on sidewalks and they

01:46:55.870 - 01:47:18.970

put a, uh, uh, a, uh, lamb and a angel out in the middle and that I was gonna as. Their evidence of perpetual care and so. Uh, I went with it to the finance company and at the finance company, the manager came out. And um He

01:47:18.970 - 01:47:38.410

uh talked to us and says well no I mean we this this is a note she signed and we've now we're gonna try to collect it and he and we said well she she's here and and her this Mrs. Mrs. Ledford here is is uh uh

01:47:38.410 - 01:48:02.560

her her employer and um she they say that. This they didn't sign a note. Well this is a note and this promissory note and we we now bought this promissory note from Liberty, uh, some cemetery Company or whatever. And um So I would, he said, I

01:48:02.560 - 01:48:22.740

went, I'll, I'll, uh, I, I'll be guided by my lawyer's advice, and he says this is, this is proper. So we went just around the corner to the lawyer. And the lawyer who didn't have a secretary. He had a reception room there and but you could

01:48:22.740 - 01:48:39.419

see under the door there was a, a light on in his room. There wasn't much light in this area, so the three of us were in this, this lawyer's office and this lawyer grew up with me in Gainesville, and he was not well thought of. He

01:48:39.419 - 01:48:57.870

took the bar exam about 5 or 6 times and uh. He, uh, I don't think he went to college. I think he went to, uh, uh, some, some school, got a, got, and he got the bar exam after 4 or 5 efforts. And uh so he

01:48:57.870 - 01:49:14.350

was talking to the manager on the phone and we could hear it and he he says well uh so Bill Norton came over there and told you so and so and he told you that uh this wasn't a uh purchasing uh of a note in good

01:49:14.350 - 01:49:31.109

faith and uh you're not a holder in good in in good faith and he said yeah. And he said, Well, have him come over here. I'll talk to him. He said, I'll take care of Bill Norton says he always did think he knew everything and so

01:49:31.109 - 01:49:46.770

I'll take care of him. And so this woman said, uh, my friend that grew up with me from the first grade on, she said, says he knows you well, so there he is accusing well that made me take the case. And for several months later I

01:49:46.770 - 01:50:04.080

went to the court of appeals twice we won and we took over the, uh, that, that company and the receivership and my son had some things that they had depositions or they had interrogatories. He asked for interrogatories and we met about 50 people in my office

01:50:04.080 - 01:50:24.109

and my son and two nurses that were uh black uh ladies that were they could read and write good and so they helped us. And we've answered those 50 or 60 interrogatories, um. So I made the mistake of, of suing in the name of 50 or

01:50:24.109 - 01:50:44.479

60 people and so there were plaintiffs that many and uh. So we had to answer those interrogators in bulk and uh my son therefore through the years worked in my office uh from time to time and he told his mother Adelaide that well he helped those

01:50:44.479 - 01:50:59.890

people and he didn't get any money out of that and says that was pro bono work and it took a couple of years but he won and I think, I think our lawyers therefore can help people. And then he named a couple of other things. I

01:50:59.890 - 01:51:29.720

had a fraud. I had a, uh, uh, they had a stock issue once of teachers, uh, teachers loan fund, and they, the Greater Georgia Investment Corporation came into Georgia and they, OK. So before we pause you were talking about a uh few cases that inspired your.

01:51:29.810 - 01:51:48.479

Well my son, yeah, my son brought up these two situations. I won't tell you anymore, but I will tell you this one, after the cemetery when he says right now then mother, remember, remember those school teachers that he represented and he did that without pay and

01:51:48.479 - 01:52:09.580

he won in the Supreme Court of Georgia and uh she said well I remember that. He said well there the uh teachers of Georgia uh were being uh were being uh. Accused of being in a fraud because these people came to Georgia and formed this uh

01:52:09.580 - 01:52:32.740

greater Georgia Investment Corporation which was uh touted to be a loan company to loan to teachers and it was touted to be owned by a stockholders owned by teachers and for the benefit of loaning to teachers and the teachers were the uh nationally uh proven. Has

01:52:32.740 - 01:52:51.020

the best credit risks of any uh group of people in the United States teachers pay their debts so they uh they uh it was for the purpose of being owned by and being uh and making loans. But then they found out that they had make loans

01:52:51.020 - 01:53:17.189

like they started uh Atlanta magazine, a slick, uh, slick magazine, uh, for a coffee table or whatever, and he that that was losing money and they bought a, uh, in Texas they bought a uranium or or a sorting machine. And that they bought slag from uh

01:53:17.189 - 01:53:39.689

some of the uh uranium mines that had been discarded uh for the the mining of uranium they bought this slag which is nothing but just rock and we're running that through some kind of machine to come up with some uh uh pure uranium. In theory that

01:53:39.689 - 01:53:56.319

might be that might sound good but anyway they bought that and it was losing money and so uh they weren't making loans to teachers. So they, there's 2 or 3 counties somehow I don't know why they came to me a well, a lawyer in Atlanta referred

01:53:56.319 - 01:54:11.759

them to me because a lot of them were from Gainesville, a lot of the stockholders, and one was a stockholder was a, uh, was a client of mine in Gainesville, and he, he had a trucking company and, uh, another client of mine had invested in it

01:54:11.759 - 01:54:32.229

anyway they got me involved and we brought suit here in the, uh, Gainesville, Georgia. Uh, against the board of directors, the promoters. And the board of directors are composed of, of some of them reputed reputable people. They were the officers of this company, but uh they

01:54:32.229 - 01:54:48.990

were also, uh, and they had an advisory board and the advisory board was the state school superintendent and the deputy state school. I don't know why they agreed to be an advisory board. They weren't a board of directors, but, and they were, there was a congressman,

01:54:49.029 - 01:55:08.609

ex-congressman that was one of the board of directors. And so I brought the suit for receivership and we established a receivership and put in our own board of directors which were these people who uh had been complaining to me about it and then we brought uh

01:55:08.609 - 01:55:27.740

I brought suit uh in this criminal court. The district attorney here in Gainesville is a friend of mine. The assistant district attorney was a dear, dear friend of mine. He later was US district judge and longtime friend of mine. They were the district attorney and assistant

01:55:27.740 - 01:55:49.060

district attorney. And we brought uh criminal charges against these people. We tried it before a jury here in Gainesville and we got uh convictions of 7 out of the 8, board of directors. Uh, they let the congressman off. Uh, I don't know why, except he, he

01:55:49.060 - 01:56:06.569

proved himself, you know, as a witness as being stupid. He, he couldn't, he couldn't put two sentences together or without, uh, he was from a little town in South Georgia. He'd been a congressman about 8 years, I think, and, uh, anyway they did they they exonerated

01:56:06.569 - 01:56:27.750

him or pardoned him as we call it the jury did. But the others they sent to jail and so that was something that we took over and these stockholders then derived something but they had been uh uh raped uh good and proper uh by these promoters

01:56:27.750 - 01:56:46.899

turned out the promoters had been in Louisiana and in South Carolina and done the same thing. So my son said lawyers mother do do some good things and I, I wanna be a lawyer. And uh So I think he's uh he's carried on that type of

01:56:46.899 - 01:57:07.319

uh of philosophy. That lawyers ought to succeed if they can and they ought to make money if they can and uh they are but they all also uh give part of their experience uh back to the community and to do pro bono work of where it's

01:57:07.620 - 01:57:23.040

uh where it's possible. Well, Judge Shorten, I really want to thank you for the privilege and honor of interviewing you over the past 3 days. It's been some really lively and engaging discussion, and I thank you for that. Well thank you it's been interesting to me

01:57:23.200 - 01:57:44.879

it it's been far more intense than I had thought about and uh I did worry about it when I uh uh when you came into this room and this is my former uh library of my law firm and it's now our uh administrative office of the

01:57:45.120 - 01:58:04.259

of the seminars and. And our what what work we do for the treaties we've transferred a lot of the administration to build over in Nashville, but we still have this, this entire floor of this oh this is an old Victorian house that was built in 1880.

01:58:04.310 - 01:58:22.279

It's on the historic district here in Gainesville, and we enjoy the windows here and we see. Uh, the climate as weather changes, so it's been nice, but I did worry about what what this was going to entail, and you have made me very comfortable and you've

01:58:22.279 - 01:58:38.790

been a, a fine, uh, interviewer, and I hope uh that in 20 years from now when somebody reads this along with other, uh, interviews of of people that you may uh interview we'll get something from it.