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Give me a few seconds. And whenever you're ready. Hi, my name is Randy Lee. Today is March 22nd, 2000. OK, I'm sorry. That's all right, just start again. We'll edit this part out. Hi, my name is Randy Lee. Today is Wednesday, March 22, 2000. I am

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interviewing Mr. Robert I Toll at his office in Huntington Valley, Pennsylvania. Mm. Mister Toll, let's begin with your childhood. Call me Bob, please, as long as I'm beginning with my childhood. Um, when and where were you born? I was born in Philadelphia and I'm told at

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the age of 6 months moved to Elkins Park and the year of my birth was 1940 but only by two days, December 30th. Where were your parents born? My father was born in Bogoslav, also known as Bazlav, Russia, which is, uh, I am told 100 vets.

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I do not know what a vest is. It sounds, I think like a kilometer north of Kief or Kiev. My mother was born in Philadelphia. And what did your parents do? My father did a number of things, um, but all connected with real estate. Um, he

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was an office boy, uh, at a tender age for a famous Philadelphia real estate developer who won broke in the depression, Nathan Salimsky. And um my father uh became a very wealthy man on his own right in his own right, uh buying and selling real estate,

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um, developing, investing in 1929 he went broke with the rest of the United States. He um Ended up uh picking up a laundry at the University of Pennsylvania law school um for kids that were going to the law school. He got a used car lot that

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was on Chestnut Street right above the law school where the hill begins used to slide the cars down the hill and sell them, uh, would drive down south, uh, with some buddies, pick up a bunch of cars, bring them up north, fix them up. Um, near

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the middle of the depression he had enough of a state to get back in the real estate. Uh, he started buying small investment properties and then larger ones and, uh, became wealthy again as an investor and developer and builder. Uh, at the most he built one

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or two communities a year of homes such as we do, uh, and at the most he uh would invest in large apartment homes, uh, high rises, and, um, deals. My mother uh was always engaged in uh charitable work. She was uh secretary during the depression. And

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that is how my father met her and um come on in. Oh, Thanks Rach Rachel, Rachel, I just passed that over here. Uh, doing a lot of charitable work, uh, after that, and, um. Raising raising a family sort of, uh, and my mom is still alive

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my dad's dead, uh, yeah, my brother Bruce, that's why it's called Toll Brothers. Do you think that your place in your family shaped your personality or views in any way? Jeez, I hope so. Yes, What were some of your interests and hobbies as a child? Well

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I built model airplanes, um. Had a tropical fish tank, uh, like to play poker, um, like sports, um, especially golf, um. Swam a lot Uh, I was on the football team and the swimming team, uh, love girls still do, um, but I'm devoted to one in

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particular, uh, now who I've been with for 25 years, and, uh, I've got 5 kids. What is your fondest memory of high school? Jeez, so many of them. Uh, fondest memory of high school, uh, does it have to be the school or just the times after

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school? My fondest memory of high school, uh, is definitely the times after school, um, hanging out with the guys, hanging out with the girls having a lot of fun. Did you have any role models or mentors during your childhood or adolescent years? Well, we're taking off.

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Um, definitely my, uh, father. Uh, he was always held up as a role model, uh, by my mother and, uh, to this day I believe, uh, he was a tremendous man and uh he was definitely a model and then I was a history political science uh

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major uh I was always interested in history so uh probably whomever I was studying for the moment was uh was a model. How did your family's socioeconomic status or religion while you were growing up shape your view of the world? Oh, deep question, uh, try to

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make a short answer, um. View of the world, uh, changed remarkably uh as I grew up, uh. I am Jewish, uh, that tradition, uh, I think gives you a legal background just to start with, just as a Labrador starts with knowing how to swim. Uh, I

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think almost all who come from a Jewish background have some, um, background in the law because Judaism is primarily founded in law, uh, Talmud study, etc. uh, not that we were T Talmud scholars, we weren't, um. But uh we did go to Hebrew school uh 4

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days a week uh until we were 13 and I continued uh with uh Hebrew school till I was confirmed. Uh, how did it shape my view of the world? Uh, we grew up in a, uh, very, uh. Uh, ghetto like uh although it was golden uh

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environment uh in the 40s, uh, this was before Israel uh was created, um, definitely, uh there was a different view in those days uh as to what Jews place in society was. You weren't allowed in certain hotels, you weren't allowed in certain restaurants, you weren't allowed

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in certain schools, um. And so, um, I, I think in the beginning we, uh, we're purposely kept pretty much within our own uh society so that I would bet that, uh, until the age of 10 I probably didn't realize that the world wasn't made up. Uh,

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of 95% Jews, uh, and then as I, uh, grew up I started to realize that hey, the world's half Jewish and half Gentile, and then as I grew up more I started to realize, hey there's no Jews in the world, uh, it's a, it's a gentile

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world and then of course uh the country changed its attitude changed and uh we've reached a point today where. You don't have to work for one law firm if you're Jewish and another if you're gentile you can work at any law firm and so uh my

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views changed in that regard. Moving on to your college years, why did you decide to go to Cornell University as an undergraduate? Uh, because I didn't get into Westland. Um, I wanted to study political science and history. Wesleyan, uh, I thought, uh, remarkable what you base

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these decisions on. I try and teach my kids this isn't the most important thing, uh, but in those days, uh, I thought which professors were where and what course of study. Uh, you would, uh, be open to or who was teaching that course of study was

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the most important thing. So Wesleyan, uh, was supposed to have the best history, uh, political science department. They had the geniuses. I didn't get into Wesleyan well I was told I was in, uh, and actually was told that they couldn't admit me because I was Jewish,

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uh, at the end, yeah, because I went back to the interviewer and I said, what goes on here? You told me I was in and he said, yeah, but we have too many Jews this year and you just. Didn't make the cut among your people. uh,

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thank you very much. uh, Cornell was my second choice, uh, because I thought they had the second best political science history department Andrew Hacker, Mueller, Ross, uh, Clinton Rossiter. Um, I was, uh, later on thrilled that I got the opportunity to go to Cornell was there

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for 4 years. That's probably, uh, 1 or 2 years too long for Cornell, but, uh, I loved it, had a great time and learned a lot. Did you ever consider an alternative to going to college? No, uh, there were no alternatives in those days, um, that

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were open to your mind, um, you went to, uh, high school, you went to college, you got a job, you got married, and that was that there was no travel abroad. I mean if you wanted to go east, you went to Atlantic City if you wanted

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to go west you went to Strawberry Mansion. Um, those things weren't open in those days. Thanks Rachel. What activities were you involved in during your undergraduate years? Did you have any part-time jobs or? Yeah, I sold the party favors. Uh, I also did the laundry bit.

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Um, picked up laundry. Um, I was, uh, chancellor, that's what they called it, of my fraternity. I was, uh, briefly, or, um, well, I wasn't one. I went out for boxing, got beat up pretty badly. That was the end of that. I thought it was pretty

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good with my fists, uh, until I tried out for the real thing at Cornell. Um, tried out for football. I've been pretty decent at football. That didn't work out either. Uh, played golf, um. Uh, let me see, I threw the javelin one track season. Uh, for

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fun, uh, went to football games sometimes, um, partied a lot, studied hard, learned how to drink, um, and, uh. Pretty much had a great time. In what ways do you think college is different today? Uh, I think it's more serious, um. And um. Otherwise I don't

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know uh that there are great differences um I haven't gone to college today so it's difficult for me to tell you but I've had 5 kids in college and um. It looks remarkably similar, uh, I believe, except that I, I think the, the students are more

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serious and the, the colleges are more serious. At least they take themselves more seriously. What types of careers did you consider while you were in college? Hi, excuse me, yeah, Warren, you need me? Are you're just checking all the noise? What kinds of careers that I

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consider? I always thought I would be a businessman, um. And, uh, I guess I thought I would go into the kind of business that my dad was in. Um, Excuse me. Thank you. He that Dealing with the air OK. Let's shift now to your law school

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years. OK, um, when did you decide to go to law school? Um, I think I, um, thought I would go to law school, probably, uh, from the time I was 10 or 11. I was always accused of being argumentative uh and I thought what better way

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to put that to use than uh through the law. I did not think I would be an attorney uh practicing attorney uh hopefully thought I would be an attorney um. But, uh, I wanted to get uh a, a legal education, a law education and um. Something

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else was on my mind, but it's, oh yeah, I, I think that also there's a tradition uh in our family that you would either be a doctor or a lawyer uh and uh I didn't like playing with blood so it was the law for me. What

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or who influenced your decision to attend the University of Pennsylvania Law School? Uh, the most, uh, influential, um, thing was that I had to have an operation. It was very serious. Uh, and we wanted that operation done in Philadelphia. That meant I was going to the

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UFP Law School. Uh, but, uh, as I recall, the UP Law School was 4th in the country. I didn't want to go to New York, um, and I didn't want to go to Harvard. Um, I wouldn't mind going to Yale. I don't think I got in,

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uh, my first choice was Stanford. Um, and I was put on the waiting list, but then when I learned I had to have this operation, I, uh, told Stanford that it didn't matter. I couldn't come, so that was the UAP for me and I was a

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lucky boy. What do you remember about your first day or your first year at Penlaw? Uh, I remember the introductory class that we had. I don't know if they still run the system where instead of starting in law school you take one class and you take

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it 5 times a week or you take it 10 times a week and it's the only thing you do and I remember that Leach taught it it was the, uh, course in agency excuse me. Thank you. 2 Good. Yes, uh, and, um, that was my first,

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uh, significant impression in law school. It was scary as as could be, um, I remember exactly where I sat uh I remember which room, uh, we sat in as a matter of fact it was the room where, uh, uh, the auction is held, uh, for the,

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uh, what is that called? Yeah The UJF, um, what's the auction where it's first equal justice, that's right, and, um. Um, I was so confused and there were so many bright people and they were jabbering away, uh, with, uh, noise Leach, uh, and, um, I'm like

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this, wait a minute, what uh. I, I don't get it. I, and I know I didn't get it for about a week and a half, and I was convinced that this was it. I was done. I mean, I somehow I was really good at Cornell too.

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I was number one in government. I mean, and there are a huge number of kids like 1000 or 500 that were taking government. It was a hotshot department and all of a sudden I'm an idiot. Well, I've gotten in over my head. And then we take

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the exam and I, I think I ended up near the top and it taught me instantly uh what you need to know that, uh, is most important, uh, from the law school, which is it's a wise man who knows what he doesn't know and most people

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are BSing, uh, and it turned out that Leach, uh, purposefully was BSing, uh, the students. The students were responding with their BS, but the exam was for real and if you didn't know how to say this doesn't make any sense to me and I don't follow

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this, which was the right answer I recall, uh, then you didn't do well in the exam, um, the second thing I remember, um. About the law school is after about 2 or 3 months I was gonna quit um. There are study groups studying study groups work

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uh guys are underlining in yellow and then highlighting in blue and then going over in pink uh I read very slowly. I don't think I read more than 10 pages, uh, an hour. I'm very fortunate that that's my style. It fits the practice of law or

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the study of law because I pretty much remember every word I read and I think I get what I read, but at that speed I just can't do it. I can't read all this stuff and uh I certainly don't have time to get together and go

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through a study study group analysis on this stuff and what about the deck and carnies uh I've got a lot of uh fun to have and I'm despondent. This is terrible. And a buddy of mine, Billy Hoorado, who went to Cornell with me, um, who's now,

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uh, general counsel for Energy Matters at the World Bank in Washington whose nickname was Willy the Worm could never trust him, um, I went to camp with him uh, Bill comes by and he's I said, Bill, I'm. I, I'm out of here. I can't take this.

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It's, I, it's too much work and it's too boring and I'm just not, I, I, my father didn't make me to become a monk. I'm not gonna sit here and, and briefcases, Billy. You're paid up, he says, Is there anything you like? I said, Yes, I

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like going to class. I like listening to the professors and it was thrilling. I really had some great ones. Leo Levin, Morris, uh, Curtis Wrights with the, uh, hmm style, hmm. That's all he ever said was mm it was like uh going through a shrink I

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imagine as I've seen it in the movies uh you never get any feedback all you got was hm and um. I, I said that's, that's really interesting and I enjoy it and I think I, I learned from it, he says, I, I tell you what he

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says go to class, stop on their lining, stop briefing, he said if you don't wanna read them, here's a tip, uh, go to the library before class, pull out the reporters, uh, and there's a squib that gives you the holding of the case, the brief facts

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of the case. This was a great tip so I would go to the library, read the squibbs, go to class sometimes I read the squibs, sometimes I didn't, uh, I was, I think, uh. Pretty engaging in class. I know I had a lot of fun later

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on and I can't remember whether this is the first year I don't think so, uh, debating with uh Louis Schwartz, debating with Bernie Wolfman, um. I enjoyed the give and take. And since I didn't care um it it was easy, um. And things went tremendously uh

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well and uh other than for flunking real estate um I think I was in the top 20 of all my classes almost always uh so I I was a natural at it I was just blessed and lucky. Were you involved in any activities or did you

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have any part time jobs during your law school years? I don't think so um. I did not join a law club or a lot of activities we played a lot of poker, uh, in the lounge, uh, in the dorm. Tremendous number of uh women that uh

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you had to visit uh because this was this was a whole new life. I mean we're going to law school. All the uh women that are going to the undergraduate school wanna meet lawyers to be, uh, we used to just open up the yearbook and say,

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hm, there's the queen, this is the, you know, the court right, I'll take this one, this one, this one this week you take this one, this one, this one that week there was a lot to do. Um, Then there was golf, uh, still to be played

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and uh a lot of fun to be had. How was the typical day at law school in the 1960s different than it is today? I don't know. Um, how do you think the student body of the law school is different? In 1966, um, there were 187

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students in your graduating class. Today there are approximately 250 students in a class. Do you think the fact that there were less law students in the 1960s changed the education in any way? Well this is a question uh that I would have to answer on um

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the common sense basis with that experience um we can both, uh, hypothesize um sure it should be different. You've got a larger class unless you've got uh concomitant increase in faculty you would have less personal attention. Let's assume you do have proratic concominant increase in in

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faculty. Uh, in professors and staff, uh, that it can be the same, uh, except that you're in a larger society, so that would change it. I would guess that the student body is more serious just as I guessed that the college student body is probably more

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serious. I knew every girl in my class, not because I was dating them. They were also intelligent big shots and I, we, you know, wouldn't mess with that. Um, they were terrific. Uh, I had tremendous relationships with them. They were generally brighter. Uh, they had to

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be uh because law school was uh a boy thing, uh, in 6063 through 66, um, today you're 50/50 uh or maybe uh even more uh girls than 50 over boys, uh 50% so. There's a significant change, uh, right off the bat. How do you think that

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your experience in the law school was different from that of other law students? Were there any other Jewish law students at the time? Oh yeah, um. I would, I would guess that the. So by that time No, no, no, you're right. By that time it still

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was uh significant that you were Jewish because that's right, you couldn't go to a law firm, uh, that was non-Jewish if you were Jewish. Um, I, I don't remember thinking a lot about that uh I think most of my friends were not Jewish, uh, just because

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that's the way the dorm floor, um, broke out, and, uh, those who were on the floor stayed friendly throughout law school we got a house and room together, um, so that wasn't an issue, um. How is it different? Uh, I think we had probably more fun,

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uh, and it was probably, um. Taken more cavalierly is that a word never, um, we, we probably weren't as. Tightly wound, but I'm guessing uh as the student body is today. What did you like the most, um, and the least about law school? Uh, the most,

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uh, I liked, uh, the give and take class matching wits with the professors listening to the performances. I mean some of this stuff was absolute one man stand up Broadway material, uh, to watch Leo Levin perform. Um, and, and unfortunately you never got the opportunity, uh,

00:26:35.680 - 00:26:56.369

they don't have, you couldn't have because remember this is almost 40 years ago and so whatever you saw. Uh, in the last couple of years, can you turn that up 10 notches? I mean, he bounced across the stage. He didn't walk. He just like a balloon

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bounced, bounced across the stage. I what do you think? Oh, like that he was so quick, so razor sharp, um, so that was, uh, the fondest and the best memory I have, uh, watching the professors, um. What was the worst. The worst, uh, was this anecdotal,

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uh, story here, anecdote, um. I, uh, um, have to think of something to get out, uh, from going to the Vietnamese, uh, battlefield. Um, this, these were hard times. I mean people were laughing and crying from one day to the next because one day a married

00:27:43.160 - 00:27:57.050

student had a kid on the way and uh at that moment that was a deferment. The next day his wife miscarried. I mean this was all of a sudden we were getting introduced to the real world in a shocking way. I mean we all knew we

00:27:57.050 - 00:28:13.439

were gonna go to work for a law firm or for business or do something with ourselves but. This was this was real serious stuff more serious than even what you're engaged in today um and we were very much aware of what happened once you went um

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survival was very questionable, um, well it it was bad, uh, obviously, and, um. I was accepted my my scam, uh, was to, uh, apply for my LLM, uh, my master's in law, and I was accepted. Uh, I was, I'm pleased to report I was the only

00:28:37.020 - 00:28:51.020

American accepted. They had a couple of people that spoke saying squid or whatever it was, some guys from Russia, a couple of guys from England, uh, and me, and, uh, I was tickled to death because this got me a student deferment again you could still get

00:28:51.020 - 00:29:16.069

these. Um And then I remember getting my greetings. Uh, and I, uh, went to Ted Houston's office who was vice dean, assistant dean. And I said what's the story here? I'm I'm accepted uh I'm going to law school next year. I'm, I'm deferred. How can I

00:29:16.069 - 00:29:34.280

be drafted? Oh, Ted was great. I always smoked a cigar, wasn't lit generally, but you know, short little thing. 00, that's right. I remember this piece of paper came in. Uh, what did I do with that? Oh, here it is. He hadn't sent in the notice

00:29:34.280 - 00:29:50.569

to whoever that I was to be the first, so that was my worst moment, and, uh, he took care of it and I took care of it and, uh, police report I didn't go. What was your favorite class in law school and why? Leo Len evidence.

00:29:51.349 - 00:30:12.569

And I've described why. Um, this is the Penn Law yearbook from 1966, the year you graduated law school. Yes. What memories? Does this bring back, do you keep in touch with any of your peers from law school? Uh, familiar faces, yeah, they're all everyone here is

00:30:12.569 - 00:30:36.400

familiar, um. Do I keep in touch with them? You know I don't know now whether they were in my class or not um but I keep in touch with a bunch of lawyers, uh, both professionally and uh for fun. Um, I just had lunch with Glen

00:30:36.400 - 00:30:59.959

Tobias who was in our class, but I haven't run into Glenn much other than he's a fellow member of the uh board of overseers and uh we got to kibitzing and uh we just uh had lunch together. Um, Oh, Peter Stern, he died. Remember every one

00:30:59.959 - 00:31:25.479

of these guys. Ernie Sloan, I ran into him at the post office, uh, up in my neighborhood about 15 years ago. We had a nice conversation. Joel Siegel, uh, jeez, I should give Joel a call. Joel represented, um, the Keynes or Keynes, the family that runs

00:31:25.479 - 00:31:45.900

New Jersey governor, water company, stuff like that, and I remember playing with Joel because, uh, how to do something with the canes. Um, 00, Joel Sachs. I wonder what he's doing, um, Mort going fine. I didn't pal around with him in law school, uh, but I

00:31:45.900 - 00:32:04.290

married his wife, um. He had a wife in law school and uh they broke up like a year or two after law school and uh I met her in '75. Dave Lawson, well Dave uh jeez, I haven't seen a, a bunch. Robert Reich, I saw him

00:32:04.290 - 00:32:22.650

up at Cornell, uh, Dave Rosson, um. I did a little business with he was a trust officer at Gerard I think uh but it could have been Mellon. And um Matter of fact it could be both then Mel and Bargeard I'm not sure and uh I

00:32:22.650 - 00:32:42.699

went to high school with um. Dave, Go ahead. Oh Pascual, Don Pascual, he ended up in real estate and I did some business with him a little bit. I don't think much came of it. In most of these phases I remember. Was, um, Leo Levin, the

00:32:42.699 - 00:33:19.800

law school professor that had the greatest influence on you, or was there someone else? The greatest influence on me, um. Probably Curtis Wright's style uh of listening with the hm uh thinking um had the greatest influence on the, uh, subsequently I would say I would definitely

00:33:19.800 - 00:33:32.930

not have said it when I was in his class. I what's going on here? This guy never teaches, doesn't say anything. It's a waste of my time it's not the usual give and take that you get from law school professors subsequently I, I think he had

00:33:32.930 - 00:33:56.880

something going there with that style he was teaching you how to think, um. Bernie Wolfman uh had a tremendous influence on me um I mean we used to go at one another, uh, ferociously and uh. Remember I hadn't read all of the material so every once

00:33:56.880 - 00:34:11.429

in a while I would start to flame as we call it, uh, you know, out of bounds I would progress things logically into an argument and finally Bernie would say not my book Mr. Toll, and I would say what do you mean? And then we'd go

00:34:11.429 - 00:34:39.489

back and look at the uh look at the book and I think that was a quote they uh they picked up uh that happened quite a bit, um, who else? Morris Torts Uh, tough Tony Amsterdam. Oh Bob Munnheim, boy did I get lucky, um, we pulled

00:34:39.489 - 00:34:58.120

the course. I, I pulled a course I wanted to take it and I got it, uh, in securities law. And Bob Monheim, who was a general counsel to the SEC, um, was the guy running the seminar. There were like 6 or 9 people in this class.

00:34:58.169 - 00:35:19.899

This was really a winner. And Monheim taught us securities law sort of um. But what he taught us, uh, also was how Wall Street worked. And I remember going up to the New York Stock Exchange and spending a day with a guy named Stott, uh S

00:35:19.899 - 00:35:40.169

T O T T I think who was the leading um market maker, uh, specialist at the time. I he was doing US Steel and Gulf Oil and other insignificant companies, uh, at today and um. I got to spend the whole day with Stat watch him make

00:35:40.169 - 00:35:59.370

his book. They were really bookmakers of a sort, uh, and, uh, listen to how business was transacted and it was remarkably similar of course to playing poker and to to the world that you could imagine. Uh, uh, he would say, uh, see that guy, he's watching

00:35:59.370 - 00:36:11.040

me out of the side of his eye. He's gonna come up here in 6 minutes, try and get a peek at my book and buy for a quarter under the market and just like clockwork. I mean the guy came up the whole thing. It was amazing

00:36:11.290 - 00:36:33.260

how much this was a game, um, and we were introduced to various, uh, brokerage houses, underwriters, investment bankers, so that when I decided to go public. It it was like old home week. uh, I was able to to go to, uh, the various investment houses and

00:36:33.699 - 00:36:51.620

cut a pretty good deal I thought for, uh, our firm for Toll Brothers, so I took a tremendous amount out of that, uh, Bob Munheim sponsored, uh, or tutored course. How did some of the excuse me. Issues facing society during the 1960s affect the law school

00:36:51.620 - 00:37:18.379

community where other students worried about Vietnam and weren't they? Uh, that's the, uh, the most, uh. Um, poignant, uh, specific, and, uh, large societal, uh, political impact on, uh, the law school. I mean, all this 11 moment you're having a lot of fun worrying about your

00:37:18.379 - 00:37:33.870

dates, uh, your, your what law firm you're gonna work for, um, what you're gonna do with the rest of your life, uh, worried about your tests and, uh. The next moment you're worried whether you're gonna get shipped out to Vietnam or not and go fight a

00:37:33.870 - 00:38:01.300

war and uh the campus uh just overnight changed um I remember when uh Kennedy was shot too. Um, I remember, of course, as everybody does exactly where they were. When they got the news. What did you learn from law school? How to think. And after graduation,

00:38:01.409 - 00:38:18.550

you became an associate at Wolf Block Shore and Solace Culling in Philadelphia. Briefly. Why did you decide to work for Wolf Block in Philadelphia? They asked me to. Um, how long were you at the firm? I think in total about 9 months though I was half

00:38:18.550 - 00:38:40.080

out the door after 6 months or after 4 or 5 months. Um, in what area of law did you specialize? I don't think you get to specialize a whole lot, uh, in that short a period of time, um. I was um. Uh, approached. I, I remember

00:38:40.080 - 00:38:53.639

interviewing for fun at Solomon and Cromwell in New York. I remember the leather in the wood, magnificent. Uh, I didn't wanna go to New York. I was a Phil Philadelphia boy and until I met my New York wife thought that New York was really out of

00:38:53.639 - 00:39:19.340

bounds for us, um, very parochial, uh, today I'm a parochial New Yorker, uh, they are also very parochial and, um. I had remember been admitted to the uh LLM program, so I'm taking courses um in the fall of '66 and I am also practicing law. I

00:39:19.340 - 00:39:35.709

passed my bar and I'm working for Wolf Block, so I go to Wolf Block, ride the trolley, uh come up out of the ground at 38th or 40th wherever it is, go to law school, knock off my classes. Go back to Wolf Block, practice, uh, which

00:39:35.709 - 00:39:56.709

really meant write memos for other guys, um, go back to class and I did that until um January of '67, um and um. Uh, I was 26, uh, by that time, and, uh, although 1A, uh, it was known that the, uh, draft boards did not take

00:39:56.709 - 00:40:16.760

people over 26, um, the reason being that they were. Too unlikely to buy into the um mindset that one needed to fight uh you know let's go guys we're going over this hill. Once you get the army had decided past 26, they're unlikely to convince you

00:40:16.760 - 00:40:30.919

to go over the hill. You say, hey, I'm not, what are you crazy or that I'm not going to. You shouldn't go either. This isn't right. I mean, you're gonna get killed, uh, and, uh, motherhood and country. Won't and the flag won't do it past 26

00:40:30.919 - 00:40:53.679

apparently so and there were other reasons um. Uh, that, um, I was now practicing full time. One of them was that, uh, I had satisfied all the course requirements in, uh, the, um, LL LLM program and I had had my outline of a thesis accepted, um,

00:40:54.120 - 00:41:11.389

so I believed that all I had to do was just flush out the thesis fill out the thesis, and present it. And uh there were no classes for me to go to because I purposely satisfied all the course requirements in the first half of the year

00:41:11.639 - 00:41:31.409

to save money. I stupidly believed that you didn't have to pay for a year you only had to pay for as long as you wanted take courses. So, uh, I remember Dean Fordham calls me to the office, Southern gentleman, um. Mr. Toll, uh, uh, I see

00:41:31.409 - 00:41:48.260

here that, uh, you are not in residence in the, uh, law school this term, and I inquire as to why, uh. Are you're not in residence and I try and give him the Colombo be. Well, I'm here now, uh, what are we talking about? Uh, you

00:41:48.260 - 00:42:05.860

have not matriculated, sir, matriculated, does that mean pay? He said, Yes sir, you must pay for the second half. I said, Well, I'm not paying for the second half. Took all my course requirements. My thesis has been accepted as an outline was about 80 pages. Um,

00:42:05.949 - 00:42:18.860

all I have to do is fill it out. I have to pay. A whole terms tuition to get you guys to read the thesis and accept it. Uh, yes, sir, uh, I said, well, uh, pay us, um, I forget how much money it was, but it

00:42:18.860 - 00:42:36.290

was a lot of money like $1800 or $2000 but I could be way off. So then I was practicing full time at Wolf Block from, uh, December, so I had been part time while I was going to the school. Uh, from September through I got married

00:42:36.290 - 00:42:55.919

in August, uh, and, uh, then went to work I think right after Memorial Day or Labor Day, and that's right, so, um, then started full time in December and, uh, by June I was gone and uh I was already working uh on a real estate, uh,

00:42:55.929 - 00:43:16.750

community, uh, going to build a couple homes um by about I guess, uh, March. I did not like the practice of law, but I had some great times there. I learned a lot. I worked with Howard Gudis, uh Bob Wax, Skippy Menisi, um, Bernie B not

00:43:16.750 - 00:43:39.340

Bernie Breen, Bernie Borri Levy. There were some great guys at Wolf Block, and, uh, it was a it was a real rock and roll jam, um, we had a lot of fun but it wasn't for me, excuse me. Thank you. On one. How did your legal

00:43:39.340 - 00:44:05.219

education prepare you for your endeavors in the business? Excuse me. Uh, it gave me a tremendous leg up. um, thank you. Two answers so I could ask you. OK, now how did law school, uh, influence me or prepare me for business, um. Business is the practice

00:44:05.219 - 00:44:26.000

of law without the judge uh. And uh fortunately without a lot of blue backer and uh briefs um although you should brief your case I guess at least uh in some fashion uh before you go into negotiation. Whether you're trying to convince somebody to do something

00:44:26.000 - 00:44:44.840

that they should have done or should not have done, uh, I hope it's not the latter, um, or whether you're trying to, uh, negotiate and buy something, um. Law school training uh is without the case study of the particular business uh which is what you get

00:44:44.840 - 00:45:08.639

out of the NBA land, um, as great a foundation as you can get, uh, it teaches you most of all to go through the checklist of all the things that you don't know. So that you get the opportunity uh to discuss negotiate uh with knowledge um

00:45:08.639 - 00:45:25.719

because you're able to say hey this doesn't make sense. I'm not far I hear the words but it really doesn't make sense and you would be amazed. Yesterday there's a meeting with. 8 guys from one of the big 5 accounting firms. I got 4 of our

00:45:25.719 - 00:45:42.679

guys in the room, um, guys and girls, by the way, uh, and, um, matter of fact, the leader of the whole thing is a girl, uh, Dale Reese, who now took over for Stan Ross and Rs, uh, runs EY's Global Real Estate department, and they're, they're

00:45:42.679 - 00:46:02.070

up on a board and the crayons are flying and diagrams are going and. I said I don't get it. And this is from Noise Leach all the way back to my first day in agency. I don't get it. Oh well, that's, uh, it's vein in the

00:46:02.070 - 00:46:22.010

crane and the two in the ban and, uh, the ABC X Y Z. Everybody's like, I don't get it. By the time we're through 20 minutes later, nobody got it didn't make sense. So the training to get in law school to uh examine. From FAs Holdings,

00:46:22.419 - 00:46:44.590

um. Uh, logic, I think puts you in tremendous shape to practice business. You founded your firm Toll Brothers, one of the leading builders of luxury homes in the nation with your brother Bruce in 1967. Objection one of. They're leading. Thank you. Um, when and why did

00:46:44.590 - 00:47:08.449

you decide to start O Brothers? Did you and your brother often work together on projects? No, um. It's 1967, um, I guess it's, I'm really into the law practice, um, doing memos for Howard Guinness and um. I go to the uh law firm and I say

00:47:08.449 - 00:47:22.739

you know this is, I don't like this. I don't like what I'm doing I'm not happy it's boring. Well, everybody's gotta do this, uh, you know, 5 or 6 years of this, and then somebody else does it for you. 5 or 6 years. I don't know,

00:47:23.169 - 00:47:39.739

maybe I just have to get used to this. Um, I'm in there Saturday working away at the library. Deha Salas comes in, must be 86 at the time. And he climbs up a ladder and gets up he's at by this stage of his life he's that

00:47:39.739 - 00:47:53.020

tall and gets up to a book like here and he goes. So, would you get that book for me? And I go, Oh shit, I'm not gonna do this for the rest of my life. Here's a guy 86 and he's still crawling up a ladder in

00:47:53.020 - 00:48:12.080

the library on Saturday. Uh, this is not for me. The day went so slowly I would look at the clock and it, you know, it says 3 of 12 and I swear an hour ago it said 5 or 12, it just won't move. I gotta, I

00:48:12.080 - 00:48:27.870

gotta stop this. So I, oh, and then I remember Levy, uh, who was, um, estate. Um, which is why I flunked the real estate in at Penn Law because they taught the students of states for the last month after you had a full year of real

00:48:27.870 - 00:48:43.830

estate. So that's the only multiple choice exam I ever had in law school so that the professor I can't Haskins could mark easily. He was a dude, he was a great guy. He could, he had a vest and he would unbutton his vest. Um, in front

00:48:43.830 - 00:48:56.429

of you and you couldn't see him do it. It was just like and the buttons would go, and then he would turn around, address the board, write something, turn back, and the vest would be button. I said how did he do that? And to this day

00:48:56.429 - 00:49:12.199

I have no idea how he did it. He was a great teacher, uh, very witty and bright, um, but, uh, lazy because he didn't wanna mark an exam. Didn't wanna do blue books, so he gave us a multiple choice with decedents of states, and I didn't

00:49:12.199 - 00:49:24.399

study it. I protested. I said, I'm not reading this. It's the books that thick we can keep it behind our desks for the rest of our lives. Look it up. What do I have to memorize it for? I didn't come here to memorize. flunked, got a

00:49:24.399 - 00:49:46.560

67, um, other than that, classes were good, uh, so, um, I'm at Wolf Block. Levy calls me from the Cs estates and says. We here at Wolf Block fill out the tax returns for some of our select clients, mostly widows who do not trust accountants to

00:49:46.560 - 00:50:00.560

fill them out wisely so and they want the Wolf Block people to fill them out. I don't do my own tax return. I'm not, I'm not gonna start to fill out some widow's tax return. Give me a stack up. I'll take them down H&R block. I'll

00:50:00.560 - 00:50:16.020

take it out of my poet. No, son, you must. I said, get I'm not doing this. So I went to the committee and I said, Look, I'm bored. I don't like the assignments. I'm out of here. Wait. They said We got some other ideas try real

00:50:16.020 - 00:50:32.229

estate. So I'm working on deals for developers. And only within a month or two do I figure out that you know I can do this. I, uh, there's no money being put up. A guy's buying a piece of land subject to it's a back of the

00:50:32.229 - 00:50:49.199

back of the book check for a deposit. Um, I can do this on my own and I sort of know this from sitting around my father's table, so I decided I wanna go into this business. So I go to my dad who said uh I can't

00:50:49.199 - 00:51:02.169

teach you because you know a father and a son uh but here's a guy that can teach you the building business. I go to another guy who lines me up with a couple of lots um but they're part of a huge subdivision which I have to

00:51:02.169 - 00:51:20.870

get approved, uh, which is owned by, uh, my father and his partner. I get the subdivision approved while I'm working at Wolf Block, um. And uh now I wanna build a couple of homes. My father at this point, uh, becomes very angry because he wanted me

00:51:20.870 - 00:51:35.810

to stay at Wolf Block, you know, my son, the lawyer, and I wanna quit and go to work full time. I go to the partner, uh, and say, uh, I wanna do this, uh, and, um, the partner backs me. He says, I'll, I'll I'll take care

00:51:35.810 - 00:51:51.300

of your dad. Go ahead and my dad, I don't think talked to me for a year. And I built two homes. My brother is pretty much still chasing girls. Um, we're not really together, uh, we call it Toll Brothers, but he's not really in it. Uh,

00:51:51.310 - 00:52:06.389

and then he gets his wife and then he comes out and we're really together, uh, like, oh I guess 9 months later, so that would be in uh '68, um and uh we built two homes. I was supposed to use them as uh uh supposed to

00:52:06.389 - 00:52:22.570

sell them instead I used them as models. And sold homes just like them on lots that I didn't own yet, but I knew I could get them because they were controlled by my father and his partner so then that next year we did 20 homes. uh,

00:52:22.629 - 00:52:40.010

now I'm a success in the building business. My dad and I are great buddies again next year I did 40 homes and so on and so forth. Um, well, you've been the auctioneer at Penn's auction. You're involved with the American Red Cross, the Mayor's Housing Council.

00:52:40.260 - 00:52:57.929

You sponsor a class of 58 elementary school children. Uh, those elementary school children are now in the 12th grade. They were elementary school children apparently when that was written. I've been sponsoring them since the 3rd grade. What do you consider to be your most significant contribution

00:52:57.929 - 00:53:22.770

to the community? Is any of those things or something else? Yeah, all of those things, um, well sponsoring the kids. Is the most significant contribution, um, the rest is, uh, giving money and giving a little of my time um why not um. Uh, the, the, the

00:53:22.770 - 00:53:49.370

second most important thing is the Seeds of Peace organization which, uh, you did mention may not be in there, um, which I can tell about later, um. I read with uh great interest. And good feeling what um some guy Eugene Lang um. Who's a little bit

00:53:49.370 - 00:54:06.189

of a bum I understand in terms of professional, uh, but was a great guy personally. I met him, got along wonderfully with him, uh, had done in New York which was take a class, sponsor it and say everybody in this class is going to college who

00:54:06.800 - 00:54:24.889

can get in. Um, but that's really not enough, uh, because if you take an inner city group of kids, a class and say anybody who can get to college, I'll pay for it you haven't really done anything. Uh, first of all, none are gonna go to

00:54:24.889 - 00:54:44.100

college, uh, maybe one by a freak accident, uh, out of the 58 we had I think 6 fathers. Uh, out of the mothers I would say half of them were, um, off drugs at any given time and it wasn't the same half always, uh, you had

00:54:44.100 - 00:55:09.040

a rolling situation, so these kids are really going nowhere and uh it's still not understood by, uh, the bulk of society, vast majority of society does not understand what's going on in the cities. Uh, in the real ghetto and um. In order to give these kids

00:55:09.040 - 00:55:24.919

a chance you've got to work with them you've got to know them you've got to grow attached to them you've got to understand their story from beginning to end um you've got to employ people when you're not there other people have to be there. You have

00:55:24.919 - 00:55:40.360

to build surrogate homes, cocoons you have to get a medical treatment. You have to get them dental treatment. You have to get them books might have to buy them pizza, uh, they may wanna go to the movies. Um, you gotta get them out of there they

00:55:40.360 - 00:55:55.909

gotta go to summer camp or they gotta go to some kind of summer program all you do is live in the ghetto by the time you're 12, you're done. Uh, so There's a there's an awful lot that's entailed in that program, um, we have, uh, I

00:55:55.909 - 00:56:12.949

don't know 30-40 kids going to college, amazing, just amazing, and, uh, a week doesn't go by when there's not a story that comes through the house on the phone or directly with the kids. Some of the kids you've gotta send a private school. You just can't

00:56:12.949 - 00:56:28.169

they can't make it in the public school system, uh, so you send them to the George School. Or the um Valley Forge Military if you need that for a little bit or to a school up in Maine um some of the kids have to go to

00:56:28.169 - 00:56:48.080

summer camp in Maine some of them can go in the Delaware Valley some can go in the Poconos um. It's an awful lot of work and tail. What do you consider to be your greatest accomplishment thus far? Marry Jane, um, and I have 5 kids. Do

00:56:48.080 - 00:57:06.139

you have any advice for young lawyers starting out today? Do you think legal education is changing? In what direction do you see legal education going? Well I, I see it's staying in terms of uh it's thesis, uh, where it's been uh I think that's the beauty

00:57:06.139 - 00:57:27.110

of it the Socratic method of reasoning, um, the give and take that you experience and participate in in law school, um, I think is, uh, one of the greatest educations you can get. What are your plans now? What do you hope to accomplish in the future?

00:57:28.979 - 00:57:50.199

Oh, I hope to keep growing the firm, uh, I hope to be able to slip out the back, Jack, um. Take it easy, uh, participate more in politics, um, do some more teaching, uh, share more uh time with my kids and their kids. Well, I wanna

00:57:50.199 - 00:57:56.050

thank you. Thank you. It's been a pleasure. It's great meeting you. You got a fun job.